These messages are the accumulation of the messages that were sent out on 
the Blue Room email list between May 1995 and June 2000.  A large portion 
of the information is directly from Professor M.A.R Barker. When the list 
members joined during the time the list was active, they agreed to refrain 
from sharing this data with non list members.  When the list ended, it was 
urged that the data be made available to non-list Tekumel fans, and it 
seemed like a good idea all around.

I only ask that if you download these digests, or have received them in 
some other way, please respect the agreements the list members made, and 
refrain from passing them around and instead point people to the Tekumel 
web site, www.tekumel.com so that they can download them for themselves, 
and see all the other material available on the Tekumel.com web site.

Many Thanks.
Chris Davis
Moderator:  Blue Room mailing list 

Creative Commons - Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 
CC BY-NC-ND

BLUE ROOM ARCHIVE -- VOLUME 19

541: Legion Affiliation Reply
542: North of Ru Reply
543: The People of Tekumel
544: Miscellaneous Questions
545: Physiological/Language Questions
546: Chlen Hide
547: Chlen Hide Response
548: Chlen Hide Reply
549: Legion HQ Locations
550: Time Displacement
551: Destruction
552: 3-Light Drive
553: Life Expectancy
554: Miscellaneous Questions
555: Game Stuff Spotted
556: Ditlana
557: EPT Review
558: More Legion HQs
559: Inventions and Their Impact
560: More on Destruction
561: 3-Light Drive, Chlen Hide, and Tekumel's Sun
562: More on Chlen Hide
563: Ditlana Response
564: Tekumel on Vulcan?
565: Weapon Design
566: Empires of the Ancients
567: Current Events
568: The Great Cataclysm
569: Shrines and Temples
570: Semaphores


*******************************

//541

 [Moderator's Note:  The Professor responds to Eric's message on the Religious]
[                   Affiliation of Legions.                                  ]

It is interesting that you have chosen to group the Tsolyani legions
according to their *religious* affiliations. I never did this, nor, to my
uncertain knowledge, did anybody else.

This categorisation doesn't really produce as much as it would appear,
however. A legion's commander may worship one god or another, but the
majority of his/her troops may belong to several temples with only somewhat
of a tendency to follow the same deity as their commander. In the
unaffiliated legions there may be no single preponderance of one sect or
another. Only legions devoted to Sarku/Durritlamish, to Vimuhla/Chiteng,
and to Karakan/Chegarra make any real effort to enlist only their own
worshippers/followers.

Legion affiliation is largely economic: temples, clans, and the Imperium
fund legions. Officer and staff posts are prize plums for wealthy
supporters of a particular deity or political agenda. A legion generalled
by a Karakan worshipper tends to attract clansmen who worship
Karakan/Chegarra. In times of trouble the legion will likely support
interests that are favourable to its political/religious outlook: e.g.
Prince Eselne, during the current civil war. But there are exceptions: e.g.
the Durritlamish legion of Sokatis. The Governor of that city despises
Dhich'une and has ordered his troops into battle -- like it or not -- on
the side of Prince Rereshqala. Most of these soldiers fought well for their
unlikely supreme commander, although a few of the more religious
Durritlamish followers refused. These "conscientious objectors" were
allowed to remain in camp, guarding the baggage. They did not suffer
otherwise.

>	Being a new member of the Blue Room, I wanted to see if I
>could add something to the general knowledge base or at least spark
>some discussion.  I decided to base my input on one of my favorite
>documents, the Deeds of the Ever-Glorious.  Having read the document
>at least a dozen times, I felt that there was an imbalance between
>those legions who were directly affiliated with the Gods of Stability
>and those directly affiliated with the Gods of Change.  What I have
>attempted to do is break down the predominantly Human/Nluss legions
>by religious affiliation.  I hope the list will be useful as a reference.
>
>	Below is a breakdown of the 70 Human/Nluss legions by religious
>affiliation.  I have not included the Omnipotent Azure Legion or the
>Legion of Ketl due to their specialized functions.  The list groups
>each God with his Cohort and also lists the number of military cohorts
>(at the time of the printing of Deeds/Armies of Tekumel Vol. I - pre-war)
>directly affiliated with the God/Cohort.
>
>Gods/Cohorts of Stability:  16 Legions, 223 Cohorts
>Hnalla:  (40)
>    The Legion of Hnalla, Master of Light; 4th Heavy Infantry   (20)
>    The Legion of the Joyful Clan of Noble Vrayani; 3rd Slingers  (20)
>
>Belkanu/Qon:  (22)
>    The Legion of the Clan of the Golden Sphere; 13th Medium Infantry (14)
>    The Legion of the Defense Against Evil; 27th Medium Infantry (8)
>
>Thumis/Ketengkhu:  (20)
>    The Legion of the Lord of Wisdom; 22nd Heavy Infantry (20)
>
>Avanthe/Dilinala:  (29)
>    The Legion of Morusai the Chieftain; 40th Medium Infantry  (8)
>    The Legion of the Twelve Paths of Avanthe; 9th Slingers  (9)
>    The Legion of the Sapphire Kirtle; 12th Light Infantry  (12)
>
>Karakan/Chegarra:  (112)
>    The Legion of Serqu, Sword of the Empire; 14th Heavy Infantry (20)
>    The Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il; 10th Medium Infantry (17)
>    The Golden Sunburst legion; 11th Medium Infantry (17)
>    The Cohorts of Chegarra, the Hero King; 12th Medium Infantry (15)
>    The Battalions of Sryma of Vra; 39th Medium Infantry (11)
>    The Legion of Lord Kharihaya; 14th Crossbow (18)
>    The Legion of the Inverted Hand; 27th Light Infantry (15)
>    Legion of the Wind of Iron; 10th Crossbow (9)
>
>Gods/Cohorts of Change:  24 Legions, 269 Cohorts
>Hruu/Wuru: (28)
>    The Legion of the Clan of the Sweet Singers of Nakome;
>                  12th Heavy Infantry (16)
>    The Legion of the Deep Purple Dark;  16th Heavy Infantry (3)
>    The Legion of the Many-Legged Serpent; 20th Medium Infantry (9)
>
>Sarku/Durritlamish: (80)
>    The Legion of the Scales of Brown; 9th Heavy Infantry (16)
>    The Phalanx of Lord Durritlamish of the Rotted Face;
>                  6th Medium Infantry (16)
>    The Battalions of the Seal of the Worm; 9th Medium Infantry (15)
>The Armored Vision of Death; 29th Medium Infantry (7)
>    The Legion of the Peaks of Kraa; 12th Archers (8)
>    The Battalions of Vrishtara the Mole; 2nd  Sappers (18)
>
>
>
>Ksarul/Gruganu:  (40)
>    The Legion of Heketh of Purdimal; 17th Heavy Infantry (18)
>    The Legion of the Night of Shadows; 15th Medium Infantry (7)
>    The Legion of the Prince of the Blue Room; 35th Medium Infantry (9)
>    The Regiment of the Knower of Spells; 5th Crossbow (6)
>
>Dark Trinity: (13)
>    The Slayers of Cities; 5th Sappers (13)
>
>Dlamelish/Hrihayal:  (8+)
>    The Legion of Kaikama of Bey Su; 36th Medium Infantry (8)
>    The Legion of the Translucent Emerald; ?? Heavy Infantry (??)
>
>Vimuhla/Chiteng:  (100)
>    The Legion of the Givers of Sorrow; 8th Heavy Infantry (16)
>    The Legion of the Searing Flame; 10th Heavy Infantry (16)
>    The Legion of Lord Kurukaa; 25th Heavy Infantry (6)
>    The Legion of the Lord of Red Devastation; 18th Medium Infantry (17)
>The Legion of Storm of Fire; 21st Medium Infantry (9)
>    The Legion of the Clan of the Broken Bough; 19th Archers (15)
>    The Legion of Glorious Destiny; 9th Crossbow (16)
>    The Legion of the Citadel of Glory; 13th Crossbow (5)
>
>
>Unaffiliated Legions:  30
>    Of the unaffiliated Legions;
>13 have commanders who worship Stability Gods
>    03 have commanders that worship Change Gods
>    14 have no clear affiliation
>
>	The balance between Stability and Change is further muddied
>by the composition of the unaffiliated legions.  If you assume that
>the Legions follow the broad beliefs (Stability/Change) of the
>commanding officers, then the balance of Light and Dark balances out,
>roughly 29 Light, 27 Dark.  If you don't make that assumption and
>instead the unaffiliated legions are opened to all faiths, then the
>Stability/Change numbers are 16 to 24, a decided advantage to Change.
>Currently the legions affiliated with stability tend to be larger then
>the legions of change.  Part of the imbalance is probably due to the
>massive increase in Sarku legions/cohorts due to Dichiune.   However,
>raw numbers don't give you any idea of the actual strength of the
>religiously affiliated legions.  For example one Karakan Legion, the
>14th Heavy Infantry - Serqu, Sword of the Empire, could mop the field
>against all three Hruu/Wuru legions (depending on battle magic and use
>of special weapons).

Your list of legions is well done. Only a few of the legions are really
motivated by religious tenets, however, although some may follow a
charismatic commander into battle on the side he/she supports. It is
anything but black or white: waffling, treachery, changes of mind, etc.
etc. all play constant roles.

>	I would be interested in getting a feel for the general
>affiliation (Stability/Change) of the unaffiliated legions.  If possible,
>it would be nice to see which legions have sided with each candidate for
>the throne.  Finally, is there any way to update Deeds to reflect the
>recent conflict?

Updating Deeds would require another major project! Bob Alberti has just
finished "Mitlanyal," the book of the deities of Pavar. I don't think he is
prepared to write another book just yet!

>    Interesting sidelines; look at the representation of
>Sarku/Durritlamish vs. Belkanu/Qon (6 vs. 2) and Thumis/Ketengkhu vs.
>Ksarul/Gruganu (1 vs. 4).

Quite so. The new militarism of the Sarku team is due to Emperor
Dhich'une's recent urgent need for troops supporting his claim to the Petal
Throne. Belkhanu and Thumis are traditionally non-military in orientation,
as is Ksarul/Gruganu. In this latter case, the Ksarul legions are perhaps
somewhat of an historical accident: they arise from various causes that now
no longer apply, but the legions continue to exist. I realise that some
"wargamer" members of the list out there would like to see a more balanced
roster, so as to give Stability a chance to win a war with Change, but this
is not really the way things work in Tsolyanu. Legion allegiances depend
upon regional, clan, historical, and economic factors that are quite
complex. It's very hard to generalise!

Regards,

Phil
-----


//542


[Moderator's Note:  Professor Barker replies to Brendan Knox's request for   ]
[                   information about the area north of Ru.                  ]

>I'm currently running a game north of Ru, Hundranu Rise region.  Has anyone
>been here before?  I myself haven't managed to visit this region of the
>Empire.  What kind of landscape, people, produce etc. did others encounter?
>Was there a leaning to any one particular diety?

Just north of Hundranu Rise, on the Sokatis side (west, in a little "bay"
of agricultural land under the frowning mountains of the Chayengar Range
and Tlani Hidallu Peak) lies the little valley of Kashkomai, where one of
our campaigns was set for a while. (Now the party's new characters are
enjoying the hospitality of the Urunen in the south polar semi-arctic
region, after a wild series of rides on the tubeways! They nearly starved
for lack of food -- and worse, they almost died for lack of water on the
cars.

The Salarvyani (eastern) area near Ru is hilly, with fields and copses
interspersed with stands of larger trees. North, toward Hundranu Rise, the
hills become a little higher and less easy to travel, until one reaches the
top of the low pass that exists between Hundranu Rise and the Gilraya
Forest to the southwest of Ru. These forests are quite dense, and there are
many animals and "critters" in them. The trees in general are deciduous
(Gapul, Daichu, etc.), with occasional small, hardy peasant holdings
scattered here and there. South of Ru, the great Sakbe Road runs down to
neighbouring Mmilaka, which is a western Salarvyani city par excellence.
The countryside is filled with villages, small towns, farms and grazing for
meat-animals. The great city of Koyluga to the southeast consumes much of
this produce, and some goes also to Khum (hex 2827 of the Zocchi map).  

If your party is north of Hundranu Rise, they'll encounter some sheer
precipices and dizzy climbs around Tlani Hidallu Peak. There are Ssu up
there, it is rumoured. The vegetation tends towards dense stands of
black-needled Tiu-trees, which look rather like evergreens. Higher up, the
summits of these peaks are bare or only sparsely covered with high-mountain
undergrowth. The lower slopes of neighbouring Kakri Midallu Peak is
inhabited by hardy, suspicious, and courageous farmers -- the region is
invaded, raided, and terrorised constantly by groups of Ssu, who have
become bolder in recent years. The peaks of the Chayengar Range are higher
and wilder yet.

The Salarvyani are devoted to Lady Shiringgayi, of course, while the
Tsolyani have no single religious affiliation in these parts.

Don't take anybody up there who doesn't have a skill in climbing and
mountaineering! The place is pretty lethal.

Regards,

Phil
-----


//543

 [Moderator's Note:  Joe Pizzirusso asks about the people of Tekumel.       ]


>I understand that the humans who went into space were made up in a
>large part by the descendants of the people of central america, and
>were heavily influenced by these cultures. Now these cultures, back in
>the pre-european times, had a strong mythology around animal/human
>shapeshifters. Shamens would often, with the help of herbal medecines,
>transform into jaguars, go onto spirit journeys etc. THe were-jaguar,
>and other were creatures were central to many beliefs. Seems like most
>other human cultures also had some sort of lycanthopy in their myths.

Central America, parts of India, and a region on the Arabian peninsula
escaped the total destruction of today's world that will occur in the year
2,012-3.

Sixty thousand (plus or minus) years passed before humankind returned to
space. A great many cultures, traditions, religious beliefs, etc. rose,
flowered, and died during all that time. Compare the changes (cultural,
linguistic, etc.) that have come about even in the last 500 years here on
Terra, and then extend the time-depth to 60,000 years plus! This is why
there is so little carry-over from the civilisations of this present-day
world. More time passed before Tekumel was settled as a sort of
"resort-planet," and more still before the Time of Darkness occurred.

>So...did this carry to Tekumel? Do certain peoples have myths,
>legends, stories, etc concerning lycanthropy? Or did humanity evolve
>so much that these were all discarded before settling Tekumel? Or did
>the folks who survived all this time decide that they had enough to
>REALLY fear with the critters that abound to have time to bother with
>children's myths. (gee...and how would you tie in the full moon(s)?
>One set of beasties for one full moon, one for the other, and a third
>really scary set for both?)

One of the greatest Shaman-specific spells is that of changing into a totem
animal; cf. the "Swords and Glory"" rulebook, as well as "Gardasiyal." The
temple of Dlamelish, which specialises in physical appearances, also has
some shape-shifting powers. There are also the Mihalli, a nonhuman race
described in the "Bestiary," which change shapes easily. The average
citizen is usually aware of these things through stories, rumours, temple
education, old wives' tales, and other such media.

Your idea about creatures affected by the two moons is entertaining.  May
be we could have "green" species (e.g. various lizards) affected by Gayel
and "red" species (e.g. certain insects, dogs with red fur, etc.?)
ensorcelled by Kashi.

>deep enough. Even the "magic" is rationally explained as shaped
>energy, as are the pwerful magic items, the fearsome magical creatures
>and so on. No hocus-pocus really. SO...am I correct in feeling that
>there is a lower level of superstition? of fears based on guesswork
>around the cooking fire? Are the enemies of man, and the existing
>undead, and the knowledge that certain temples build undead like you
>and I would build a set of shelves (that is uneavenly and somewhat
>rickety ;-) ) enough to make it so that the average people do not
>believe in things such as ghosts? either as "real" disembodied things
>that may be restless for a reason, or returning to punish someone, or
>just as a psychic phenomemon? Are you either safely off to the island
>of the dead, or a Sarku-built undead?

There are indeed superstitions on Tekumel: many, many layers of regional,
historical, and religious variants. Only a small percentage of the populace
is "educated" at all, and much of the learning they receive is fragmentary,
partial, and just plain erroneous. Villagers and farmers are less
sophisticated than urban dwellers, and their superstitions are thus
different. The villagers have endless supplies of "ghosts" and "monsters,"
and in some areas (e.g. the Kraa Hills) people don't go out after dark for
fear of the spooks! Average *educated* people take their temples' word for
the non-existence of beings who cannot be proved to be extensions from the
Planes Beyond. There are very few real "theologically-oriented" beings
here: ghosts, goblins, devils, and what-have-you. The priests provide
examples of *existing* and *proveable* creatures and pooh-pooh those
created by lower-class illiterate superstitions. This doesn't stop granny
from holding forth on the terrors of the Nighted One of Old Bones (perhaps
a faint memory of the Goddess of the Pale Bone?).

>It just seems to me that it would take a lot to remove these
>archetypes from the human racial memory (if you buy into that sort of
>thing). Seems like we'd still have some sort of gut-fear of
>shapeshifters, dead things we couldn't explain, even things (dare I
>say the V-word) that live off the life energy or blood of the living.
>Does it come down to the fact that one purpose of Tekumel was to make
>sure it was truly alien, and that adding a vampire critter etc, would
>simply damage the feel that the Professor was trying to create? (if so
>this is a perfectly fine reason to say, that this is the way it is,
>and thats that.)

Some of the superstitious folk do indeed hold such beliefs, but the
existence of "real" (though non-theological) gods, plus the all pervasive
teachings of the temples, tend to reduce the population of ghosts and
things that go boomp in the night considerably.

Vampires and similar eastern European boogiemen are simply too far back in
Tekumel's history to have carried forward, although modern-day Tsolyani do
have various ideas that are vaguely similar. This was not really my motive
in excluding vampires, frankenstein monsters, and other modern bugaboos; I
felt that such a span of history would certainly completely change the
corpus of human belief, creating some similar things but doing away with
much.

Some of the Tsolyani ideas about the Undead, for example, border on
superstition, while others are busily put about by the priesthoods of Sarku
and Durritlamish.

Interesting. Regards,

Phil
-----


//544

[Moderator's Note:  Nuno Flavio asks numerous questions on various topics.  ]

>I recently obtained copies of Tekumel's Sourcebooks 1 & 2 and "The Eye"
>3,5 and 6 (besides the 2 novels you sent me)

>While reading them, many questions were answered but many more
>were raised. Most are about pre-cataclism Tekumel and humanspace
>They are not directly related with Present Tekumel, but i am very curious
>about the (very) remote past of the planet and the civilization that
>colonized it ?

I have never gone deeply into detail concerning the pre-Time of Darkness
eras of Tekumel's history. The general outlines published in the Sourcebook
are all too general, and writing up each dynasty and political event would
be a task to daunt the editors of the Encyclopaedia Brittanica! I have
always assumed that when humankind got out into space, they met the Pe Choi
(who have been watching our progress for millennia -- flying saucers
anyone?). To the first human explorers the Pe Choi are reported to have
said, "What took you so long?" The Pe Choi subsequently gave their
Three-Light Drive to the humans and aided them in colonising various
worlds, one of which was Tekumel. This meant the extermination and
displacement of the Hluss and the Ssu. Humankind's allies, trading
partners, etc. then arrived, and the planet was terraformed and turned into
a large-scale resort planet for wealthy adventurers and entrepreneurs. The
rest you know.

>1 - If an Aridani woman can become "normal" anytime she wants, and a "good
>clan girl" can declare herself Aridani when she wills it, what's there to
>stop unscrupulous women from manipulating the system ? (ie: a non-Aridani
>declares herself Aridani to divorce her husband, and after that turns
>"normal" again to enjoy the protection of the clan again).

Legally this is possible. It would not sit well with her clan, however, nor
with her temple. Keeping good relations in a tightly grouped and stratified
society makes it almost impossible to "rebel" as many European and American
adolescents seem to do. A "rebel's" clan can put pressures on such a person
easily, effortlessly, and with unpleasant effects. There need be no
violence, of course: remove the offender's money accounts from the clan's
records, boycott her business(es), deny her social access to clan events,
and bring her in for a public reprimand -- any and all of these -- and even
the toughest rebel may have trouble resisting. Such women then usually
surrender -- or go off to become soldiers in Lady Mrissa's legion, into a
temple to become a priestess, into one of the bureaucracies to live as
"old-maid" administrators, etc.


>2 - Who was the "Veritable Autocrator" ? Sounds like a religious leader.

Hmm. Where did you find this title? I don't recall including it...?

>2.1 - Speaking of Religious leaders, are the Humanspace major religions
>(if any) known ?

No. I never detailed them, but I always rather assumed that they would be
similar to other religions developed by Humankind over the millennia, and
also that there would be a good percentage of "scientfic agnostics" and
atheists in the mix.

>3 - The "eyes". Were they only built during the time of darkness and the
>latter times or was there some sort of similar artifacts before?
>I am a little confused because the Eyes are treated has technological
>artifacts but use "magical" energy.

Eyes date from before the end of the pre-Time-of-Darkness era right on
through much of the Latter Times. It is said that there are a few people
today who can use ancient matrices to create new Eyes, but this remains
unproved -- and *very* secret, if so. In the first game (EPT), I allowed
this to occur more often than it really does in order to give players
something to strive for.

The energy used by Eyes is not "magical" in the strict sense; it is Other
Planar energy, drawn through the thin skin of reality on Tekumel, then
moulded and shaped and released by "spells," which are mind-sets (Gestalts,
in German) that one learns in the temple schools. An Eye is thus just a
totally devoted and focussed device that can draw Other Planar power and
fire it.

>4 - Did "magic" existed in any form in the golden age before the cataclism
>? Were Psionics "real" in humanspace ?

As noted above, there was a growing dependence upon Other Planar power that
began in the pre-Time-of-Darkness periods and continued to grow during the
Latter Times. The great cataclysms and the decline of technology slowly put
an end to the production of new devices. During the last millennia of the
Latter Times some very odd Eyes were created, and it became a mark of
scholarly and scientific skill to create really delicate and finely tuned
mechanisms: e.g. the "Eye of Absolute Depilation," which removes all body
hair except for that on the head. For some reason this "barber tool"
strips an Ahoggya of his outer skin layers and enrages him. Pe Choi are
unaffected, as are Ssu, Hluss, and some other species.

>Did the Pe Choi and other nonhuman races had any of their current psychic
>powers before Tekumel was hurled into the pocket universe ?

I believe they did.

>5 - In Tekumel Sourcebook 1 it is stated that in the century after
>Tekumel fell into the pocket dimension, the same fate befell 722
>humanspace systems. In enterview to "The Eye" Prof. Barker says he knows
>about a dozen of those worlds or so. Does he have some written material on
>them, or is such material avayable anyware ?

Alas, I have never written up these worlds. Would anyone like to try? Since
they have so little to do with Tekumelani culture, it would be quite
feasible for someone else to develop them.

>6 - Was the N'luss ethnic group born in post-cataclism Tekumel or did they
>appeared in Humanspace ? Were blond people also rare (or
>non-existant) in Humanspace ?

The N'luss appeared during the pre-Time-of-Darkness era. They appear to
have been a genetic/ethnic group of humans who had escaped the great
cataclysm in 2012 that destroyed much of Terra's populations.

>7 - Did Prof. Barker ever elaborate on how the 3-light-drive and the
>FTL technology worked ? Can you tell me the average speed or travel-time
>of a spaceship ?

Not a clue. I am not a technician! In fact I can barely use this computer.
You'll have to inquire from one of the Pe Choi.

>8 - From what i have gathered humanspace robotics was so advanced trully
>"human" automata could be built (many are difficult to tell from real
>humans). How perfect was (is) their artificial intelligence ?  Were they
>tought of has "living" beeings ?  Did they had any rights before the law ?

A whole bag of difficult questions, Nunio! Yes, human-appearing automata
were not uncommon as "rich man's servants" on pre-Time-of-Darkness Tekumel.
Their artificial intelligence(s) were quite advanced, and in some cases
much more developed than humans' -- try playing chess with one of the Class
VII house robots, but don't wager any money! Most robots had no rights
under the law but were "property."

>9 - Current Tekumelian languages come originaly from the "High Stellar"(?)
>(a maian-arabic language) lingua Franca of Humanspace. Has the Professor
>ever developed this language ? Is there any sort of Grammary or Primer for
>it ?

Never got the time or energy to develop it. THere is *so* much to do!

>10 - The lifetime expectancy in Tekumel is low.
>I assume Humanspace didn't use it's highly advanced genetic science (it
>was VERY advanced because many creatures of Tekumel are artificial) to
>increase it. Why is that ?

During the pre-Time-of-Darkness period, many old Earth diseases were cured
or at least reduced considerably. Syphillis, Aids, plague, cholera,
typhus-typhoid, etc. were almost eliminated, and various ailments from the
Non-Human worlds were also controlled or eradicated. A few worlds with
*really* lethal diseases had to be interdicted and treated as "off limits."
Ancient fears of infection are still rampant in many places.

Genetic science was indeed very advanced during the pre-Time-of-Darkness
era. This carried over into the Latter Times, when various warlords created
certain creatures and species just for their own amusement, as bodyguards,
as private armies, etc. Sometimes they adapted a spcies from some other
world; sometimes they used vats of "materials" to create creatures after
models developed by their scientists. Some of these became *very* strange
indeed, and most of these "experiments" have since perished or reverted to
earlier forms.

>11 - Are the causes for the 21st century atomic armaggedon known ? Who
>shot first ? :)

It seems that somebody living in the present day welter of states that
comprised the Soviet Union managed to steal nuclear warheads and
technology. The Russians tried to stop the firing of these missiles, but
they failed, and a whole flight of very powerful nuclear warheads landed
squarely on north America -- which then fired back from bases overseas and
on ships -- which then led to clouds of radioactive "dirty" material
falling all over the world from one end to the other. Only the prevailing
winds and a couple of historical accidents managed to save certain areas
from contamination.

>11.2 - Were any, yet undiscovered (or unrevealed by our governments)
>weapons used in the war ?

Oh, yes.

Regards,

Phil
-----


//545

 [Moderator's Note:  Sorry for the long delay recently.  We have recently wel-]
[                   comed 7 new people to the list, and our total membership ]
[                   has broken 250 members.  Sorry for the quiet Phil.       ]
[                   Paul Roser asks about the physiological impacts on       ]
[                   Language, and just general physiology of non-humans.     ]

>Are the 'gut rumblings' and 'vibrating air intake' of the Ahoggya
>initiatory mechanisms (similar to the pulmonic vs glottalic mechanisms in
>human speech) or something else?

To my uncertain knowledge, no one has ever analysed the tangled internal
workings of an Ahoggya. The Imperial Commission established by Emperor
Durumu, "The Copper Blade of Sarku," (1,747-1,809 A.S.) that decided that
these creatures are "animals," rather than "rational beings." Their "gut
rumblings" were likened to the sounds of Chlen-beasts in heat. Ahoggya have
various sets of "lungs" and several other organs, the functions of which
are unknown.

The Llivyani are perhaps the best "internal medicine specialists" in the
Five Empires; they even have a fairly accurate idea about the circulation
of the blood. This is not totally accepted by other nations, however. The
Tsolyani are fairly good at practical surgery, even trepanning and the
removal of brain tumours. The Mu'ugalavyani are the best military surgeons,
but treating with pills and drugs is considered a bit "non-noble." They are
thus only passable physicians when it comes to internal medicine.

Magic works in most locales, of course, but it is much more common in the
games based on Tekumel than in "Tekumel-reality" itself. It seemed good to
allow player characters access to "instant healing," rather than slow down
the progress of an adventure by compelling "wounded" characters to stay in
bed for months or weeks! Healing and Alleviation spells are indeed fairly
common in the temple schools, but high-level enchantments like
Revivification are quite rare.

Parties have often run into "barren" regions where "magic" (i.e. the
drawing and shaping of Other Planar power) does *not* work, and then wounds
fester and kill, just as they did in Terran cultures up to the 20th Century
(cf. the "surgeon's tents" in American Civil War history!). Recovery on
Tekumel is a matter of sanitation, the victim's stamina, rest -- and a
low-ish dice roll.

>   What sorts of different (ie not available or similar to human)
>mechanisms are found in the Hlaka, Pygmy Folk and Pachi Lei, that you are
>aware of?  I seem to recall references to the Pygmy Folk in "Flamesong"
>sounding as though it had two tongues, do they, in fact? (I also imagine
>the nasopharynx of a Pygmy Folk must be quite different from a human's?)

The Hlaka, Pygmy Folk, and Pachi Lei have "lungs," nostrils, pulmonary
in-out breathing, tongues, teeth, vocal chords, a larynx and pharynx, etc.
etc., much as we do. There are differences in shape and size, of course,
and these organs resonate somewhat differently than ours. The Pygmy Folk
have a sort of high stutter, which is likened to "two tongues" in
"Flamesong," but is really a reflex, similar, perhaps, to teeth chattering.
The Hlaka speak in hisses and whistles, although they can imitate human
speech with much the same skill as an educated parrot. The Pachi Lei have
[Moderator's Note:  I'll never be able to think of Hlaka again without think-]
[                   ing about a talking Parrot....  :)                       ]
various internal body cavities that make their voices seem to echo deeply.
All of these species can "speak Human," but with widely differing "accents"
and control. This is really difficult to convey in a written text, such as
a novel. The Tsolyani (and others) are used to these variations and tend to
be lenient in trying to enforce linguistic precision on these species.

>   Does the crest of the Swamp Folk play a part in speech production,
>rather like the way elephants use their trunks to produce subsonic sounds,
>or is it more for regulating heat/body temperature?

The crest of the Swamp Folk is thick, stiff, almost horny in feel, with no
internal organs that I know of. It is not prehensile, nor does it "droop"
or "rise" because of emotional changes. (The Shen crest does rise; it
usually lies flat upon the skull but rises into a fearsome set of spikey
protuberances when the individual is angry, sexually excited, etc.) The
Swamp Folk crest is not used for speech but is part of each individual's
honour and dignity, however: cut off the crest, and the victim soon seems
to "die of shame," as they put it.

>   Last language-related question - do the Hlaka produce sounds rather
>like birds & bats (i.e. whistles and other similar sounds)?

Yes. Their language, the humans say, sounds like squeaking and whistling
and is "all vowels."

>   I apologize to others on the list if this sort of thing seems overly
>arcane, but I get a HUGE kick out of speculating about non-human
>languages. (And many thanks to you, Phil, for bearing with my questions!)
>   Finally, two physiognomic questions:

>1) Re: the Hlaka. All the illustrations of them indicate that they have
>wings AND arms as separate organs, yet the bestiary implies that the two
>are one structure, very similar to the wings of a bat, with additional
>fingers(?). I've been very curious as to which of these images of the
>Hlaka is correct.

I don't know how this got through. The Hlaka indeed have *separate* wings
and two arms, in addition to two feet and a prehensile tail.

>2) Re: the Pe Choi. Do they have lips, or are their mandibles beak-like
>(and when speaking of Pe Choi mandibles, are you referring to their jaws,
>or to smaller insect-like structures within their jaws?)

The Pe Choi have a chitin-like exoskeleton. They thus have no "lips," as
such, but make closures with their jaw ridges, teeth, tongue, (and other
organs?) which *sound* like labial consonants (i.e. /p/, /b/, /m/, /w/).
They thus have a very odd-sounding "accent." After living in the Empire for
some time, a Pe Choi can almost approximate human speech. Tsolyani
jokesters sometimes devise "tests" to be applied to the poor Pe Choi: /mal
ul pepim brumnuntik molMeku!/ "Let [him] descend in procession to Meku."

I think I meant the whole Pe Choi jaw structure when describing it as
"mandibles."

Regards,

Phil
-----


//546

[Moderator's Note:  Gordon Neff ponders numerous topics.                    ]

Gentlemen:

That was a very interesting question, concerning Chlen-hide
chainmail. I've always been aware of the cultural peculiarities inherent in
the very existence of the stuff; to give them an idea, my introductory
players were told that it resembled grey-green fiberglass when unpainted.

What the heck-- they got the idea.

But it IS an organic compound, as opposed to an inorganic (animal,
rather than mineral). Further, it IS used in a hot, semi- to gawdawful
tropic climate.

Thus: Does Chel-hide ROT? (Or stated better, how quickly -does- it
rot?)

The other aspect of it that always interested me was the way it
competed with, or sometimes outright supplanted BRONZE.

[Moderator's Note:  Taken right out of the source book it says that Chlen hide]
[                   is bronze's equal in hardness, and is quite a bit lighter.]
[                   It is also fashioned into jewelry, clothing, etc.  It is  ]
[                   also a very renewable resource.  You can peel your Chlen  ]
[                   every six months or so.  Beats the heck out of mining     ]
[                   even when you can find the minerals.  Phil, could you     ]
[                   speak to the issue of does treated Chlen Hide rot?        ]

Now, bronze is neat-o stuff, as Hammurabi or the Beaker traders of
the same period could tell you; Dr Bronowski called it 'the plastic of its
age,' suitable for the making of everything from earrings to cookpots to
body armor... and swords. 

If the choice was given to me between a bronze sword and a
Chlen-hide sword, I know which one -I'd- choose... and military
practicalities being the most absolute ones known, I would think that
Chlen-hide swords would become useless-- er, ornamental, that is, in
extremely short order. (Like, by the next battle.)

Curious, that anyone is still using them at -this- late date.

(You can't just say, 'Well, they don't have the metals to make
bronze,' either-- that might well be true, but the hypothetical 'they'
would have hides, I'd bet-- or salt, or amber, or fuggin -something- to
TRADE for bronze, mucho pronto, before they get fuggin KILLED by their more
on-the-ball neighbors...)


Drifting slightly off the subject by way of 'military necessity,'
the value of -speed- was so readily apparent to the armies of the early
Bronze Age-- like Hammurabi, again, and Mursilis later on-- that the
arrival of the horse, and the horse-drawn chariot, spread to everyone who
ever came in contact with it, -anywhere-.

"Wheels, carts and human labor were long known in China and Japan,
but the jinrikisha ('rickshaw') was not thought of until the 1880s. There
is simply no single, solid explanation to such 'whys'-- only theories, and
in the last analysis, 'they didn't think of it.'" -- Swords and Glory, Vol
1.

Are you  s u r e  about that? The jinrikisha -was- invented
eventually, after all, when Europeans arrived and took a look around-- when
one culture met another.

You're saying that nobody, nowhere, nohow, in all of the nations of
the known world, across twenty-five thousand years or more-- that Nobody
thought of throwing some tow-ropes over the shoulders of some of those
marathon-running Imperial couriers or their predecessors and rolling some
light chariots with a brace of bowmen aboard into battle?

That in twenty-five thousand years, a time span enough to 'evolve'
timber wolves into teacup poodles and English setters, that some nation
like Haida Pakala did not long ago create 'two-legged horses'? Huge and
massive humanoids built for speed and endurance in the long run (as humans
themselves are; paleolithics often simply ran their prey to exhaustion--
I've done it with my dog) who pull their masters' chariots not quite as
fast as their terrestrial equine counterparts, perhaps, but again, can do
so for vastly longer... (Though you might run the Boston Marathon, don't
even -try- galloping a horse for forty-two kilometers non-stop, or even a
third of that.)

There's no cultural 'blind spot' against humans carrying other
humans, either-- litters are everywhere.

Remember, it need only happen  o n c e , for the users to wipe up
the battlefield and drive their enemies before them in fleeing rout-- until
they themselves get some of these things, when it will be -their- turn on
the NEXT people...

Only once, anywhere, at any time-- for the idea, and the, ah,
creatures, to spread as far and fast as did the horse-drawn chariot.

You're  s u r e  this has somehow just never happened?

[Moderator's Note:  If Phil says it hasn't...   It may have, but been lost in]
[                   tens of thousands of years of history.                   ]

Gordon.
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.


//547

[Moderator's Note:  Bob Alberti responds to Gordon's questions about Chlen  ]
[                   hide.                                                   ]

>Thus: Does Chel-hide ROT? (Or stated better, how quickly -does- it
>rot?)
 
The methods of treatment of Chlen hide are secrets known only to the
clans which work the stuff.  The end result, however, is something which
is impregnated with probably-poisonous compounds, largely anaerobic, and
possibly even permeated with some minor preservation spell.

There's little for any microbe to eat, and little reason for it to rot.

>If the choice was given to me between a bronze sword and a
>Chlen-hide sword, I know which one -I'd- choose... and military
>practicalities being the most absolute ones known, I would think that
>Chlen-hide swords would become useless-- er, ornamental, that is, in
>extremely short order. (Like, by the next battle.)

It's a weight/speed/mass tradeoff, isn't it?  A bronze sword is 1) way more
expensive in Tsolyanu, 2) lots heavier, and 3) no harder.  So while a
successful blow with a bronze sword might have more "oomf" behind it 
than a similar chlen-hide sword, the arm tires more quickly and the blade
does not move as fast.  And it's a lot cheaper.  

So for average Joes, a chlen-hide sword makes sense.  For brawny player-
characters, backed by unlikely dice rolls and equally-unlikely fortunes,
a bronze sword might do...  but then, who settles for bronze when you 
can have enchanted steel?

> Curious, that anyone is still using them at -this- late date.
> 
> (You can't just say, 'Well, they don't have the metals to make
> bronze,' either-- that might well be true, but the hypothetical 'they'
> would have hides, I'd bet-- or salt, or amber, or fuggin -something- to
> TRADE for bronze, mucho pronto, before they get fuggin KILLED by their more
> on-the-ball neighbors...)

As good as it might be, one bronze sword is no match for twenty sweaty
Salarvyani with chlen-hide swords...  or even big clubs, for that matter.
Unless of course you're Xena, but I don't think she'd make it to Tekumel.
 
>You're saying that nobody, nowhere, nohow, in all of the nations of
>the known world, across twenty-five thousand years or more-- that Nobody
>thought of throwing some tow-ropes over the shoulders of some of those
>marathon-running Imperial couriers or their predecessors and rolling some
>light chariots with a brace of bowmen aboard into battle?

Sure, they think of all SORTS of things!  One fellow outfitted his troops
with two shields, welded edge-to-edge, to make it look like he had twice
as many guys as he actually had.  Another fellow tried burying his soldiers
under a thin layer of soil so that they could spring up in surprise.  And
a third tried arming his slaves.  They're all dead now.

Meanwhile, I have some mail for you.  Here is a summons to the Palace of 
of the Realm to meet with representatives of the Imperial Couriers and 
the Blazing Sword Clan -- seems that fellow didn't like being bound to
your two-wheeled contraption.  Speaking of which, several clanmasters from
the carter's clans are waiting outside the clanhouse to speak with you
about your infringement of their occupation.  Then there are some military
officers waiting to speak with you about your 'innovation' which apparently
violates a treaty we made with the Sa'a Allaqiani in fourth century A.S.
Oh, and here's a dispatch from the Hirilakte arena - apparently you're
to appear in a duel with one Adlar hiFershena, and aggrieved Imperial 
Courier with rope burns and one of the best swordsmen of the valley of
Kashkomai...
-----


//548

[Moderator's Note:  The Professor replies to Gordon's message.              ]

>That was a very interesting question, concerning Chlen-hide
>chainmail. I've always been aware of the cultural peculiarities inherent in
>the very existence of the stuff; to give them an idea, my introductory
>players were told that it resembled grey-green fiberglass when unpainted.

>What the heck-- they got the idea.

Good. Your description is very close. Chlen-hide can be thin or thick,
painted, lacquered, set with gems or gold wire -- etc. As a weapon, a
Chlen-hide sword is lighter than a bronze sword. It is easily replaceable,
and it can be sharpened -- and thrown away when it is no longer usable. I
suppose I could make an analogy and say a Chlen-hide sword is rather like a
kleenex, compared with a cloth hanky (bronze), compared with a fancy,
embroidered linen handkerchief (iron/steel). The latter two are better, of
course, but they are expensive, hard to find (most weapon dealers don't
have iron/steel blades at all, although bronze is not all that difficult to
get.

>But it IS an organic compound, as opposed to an inorganic (animal,
>rather than mineral). Further, it IS used in a hot, semi- to gawdawful
>tropic climate.
>
>Thus: Does Chlen-hide ROT? (Or stated better, how quickly -does- it
>rot?)

Chlen-hide must be treated with certain chemical agents known only to the
tanners' clans. These "secrets" are respected by the clan-minded nations of
the Five Empires. A number of other people know the broad outlines of the
"secret," but they must act as though it is a mystery; otherwise one gets
lawsuits for breaching another clan's secrets -- and heavy "Shamtla."
Tanning Chlen-hide is not a high-prestige job any way -- rather like being
a blacksmith in rural India, where those who handle iron come from the
lower castes.

>The other aspect of it that always interested me was the way it
>competed with, or sometimes outright supplanted BRONZE.
>
>[Moderator's Note:  Taken right out of the source book it says that Chlen
>hide]
>[                   is bronze's equal in hardness, and is quite a bit
>lighter.]
>[                   It is also fashioned into jewelry, clothing, etc.  It
>is  ]
>[                   also a very renewable resource.  You can peel your
>Chlen  ]
>[                   every six months or so.  Beats the heck out of mining
>]
>[                   even when you can find the minerals.  Phil, could you
>]
>[                   speak to the issue of does treated Chlen Hide rot?
>]

>Now, bronze is neat-o stuff, as Hammurabi or the Beaker traders of
>the same period could tell you; Dr Bronowski called it 'the plastic of its
>age,' suitable for the making of everything from earrings to cookpots to
>body armor... and swords.

Bronze is indeed useful. With some expense and difficulty, one can
transport tin and copper to a smelter where bronze is made. The reason it
does not replace Chlen-hide is that any farmer can "peel" his Chlen-beast,
give the slab of hide to a local tanner, and get tools, weapons, etc. made
from it -- easily and swiftly! The sources for copper and tin are separated
by about half of the sprawling Tsolyani Empire, and slave caravans are
incredibly slow. Bronze is sought after, but it could never replace
Chlen-hide for economic reasons.

>If the choice was given to me between a bronze sword and a
>Chlen-hide sword, I know which one -I'd- choose... and military
>practicalities being the most absolute ones known, I would think that
>Chlen-hide swords would become useless-- er, ornamental, that is, in
>extremely short order. (Like, by the next battle.)

Obtaining bronze swords for the entire Tsolyani army would be a major drain
on the Empire's fiscal reserves. Chlen-hide is so much easier to get; the
troops like it because it is very light (which bronze is not); if you lose
a bronze weapon, you are out a major number of Kaitars, and if you lost it
carelessly, your superior office may flay off a little of *your* hide with
his staff! Being heavier, bronze also takes more strength to wield -- the
Tsolyani were never interested in *short* or simple *straight* swords;
their society demands elaborate shapes and complexities. Bronze swords are
thus made to resemble Chlen-hide swords; these are quite heavy, comparerd
to light Chlen-hide weapons. Wielding a heavy weapon in battle (loaded with
armour, etc.) is a lot less appealing than whacking away with a lighter (=
faster?) Chlen-hide blade. If you lose, you can get away faster, too -- or
throw down the Chlen-hide sword and flee like a rabbit with no regrets
about its expense. Some of this I have tried to indicate in the various
sourcebooks and novels, but it is difficult to convey, apparently, since
these questions have been asked many times by many people.

>Curious, that anyone is still using them at -this- late date.

Not at all. Societies do not all head in the same direction, as we know
well from this world.

>(You can't just say, 'Well, they don't have the metals to make
>bronze,' either-- that might well be true, but the hypothetical 'they'
>would have hides, I'd bet-- or salt, or amber, or fuggin -something- to
>TRADE for bronze, mucho pronto, before they get fuggin KILLED by their more
>on-the-ball neighbors...)

As said above, bronze is good and useful, but Chlen-hide is lighter, easier
to obtain, cheaper, easier to work -- and can be discarded when necessary.
The neighbour you mention who uses a bronze sword may have a slightly --
and that is really pretty slight -- advantage with his bronze blade, but he
has to work harder to produce his bronze, requiring raw materials that may
not be nearby and are not cheap; in battle he may be a little slower than
his Chlen-hide-armed opponent, and on long marches, he will tire before a
foe that has only to carry light Chlen-hide armour and weapons. There is
also the heavy burden of tradition.

>Drifting slightly off the subject by way of 'military necessity,'
>the value of -speed- was so readily apparent to the armies of the early
>Bronze Age-- like Hammurabi, again, and Mursilis later on-- that the
>arrival of the horse, and the horse-drawn chariot, spread to everyone who
>ever came in contact with it, -anywhere-.

>"Wheels, carts and human labor were long known in China and Japan,
>but the jinrikisha ('rickshaw') was not thought of until the 1880s. There
>is simply no single, solid explanation to such 'whys'-- only theories, and
>in the last analysis, 'they didn't think of it.'" -- Swords and Glory, Vol
>1.
>
>Are you  s u r e  about that? The jinrikisha -was- invented
>eventually, after all, when Europeans arrived and took a look around-- when
>one culture met another.

Again, this is culture as seen from a Western "scientific" perspective. The
*Europeans* invented the ricksha, not the Chinese, the Malays, the Indians.
My players keep asking why some enterprising young priest-scholar just does
not combine sulphur, charcoal, and saltpetre and produce gunpowder. This,
again, is a view from "hindsight." Centuries passed on Earth without
gunpowder, and even the brilliant Chinese did not seem to use it very
efficiently until the Europeans took it home. Nobody invented TNT either,
until Nobel putzed around with chemicals and figured it out. Nor did
anybody in Europe invent plastic explosive until -- I think, and I may be
wrong -- after the Korean War.

My point is that efficiency, better results, etc. are not sufficient causes
for invention. One needs geniuses -- and the economic and social conditions
beneficial to make and use the invention. The Aztecs and Maya had wheeled
toys but never invented carts. (Like the Tsolyani, they had no large draft
animals. Chlen-beasts are too slow to fill this role very well, although
they do haul produce across long distances.) The Aztecs and the Maya also
did not invent the true arch, although they built elaborate edifices and
worked stone beautifully. The Old Empire Maya did not have goldwork either,
although they did eventually acquire it from the Aztecs/Toltecs (etc.) to
the north and/or from the peoples south of them. Gold thus largely shows up
in Maya culture during the later Empire. One would think that Maya
merchants would have seen the benefits of metal and have done all in their
power to hire smiths, get access to metals and mines, etc. But ...?

These factors can be said to be "cultural blindspots," like the Tekumelani
blindness to maps: people draw *pictures* of cities, not abstract maps to
scale. For a Tsolyani-style "map" of Bey Su, look at the box cover to the
old EPT game. As in the Middle Ages, Tsolyani merchants can indeed draw
boxes and lines, showing *abstract* "roads" and "towns": beside a line may
be written "paved road, 2 days on foot, food plentiful" or "difficult
mountains lie on your way here" -- etc.

I realise that I can never convince a Western "scientific" mind of Tekumel
realities. Please, thus, just take these statements as "given," for the
purposes of the mythos. I am afraid you'll just have to love old Tekumel,
warts and Alzheimers and all.

>You're saying that nobody, nowhere, nohow, in all of the nations of
>the known world, across twenty-five thousand years or more-- that Nobody
>thought of throwing some tow-ropes over the shoulders of some of those
>marathon-running Imperial couriers or their predecessors and rolling some
>light chariots with a brace of bowmen aboard into battle?

Wagons pulled by humans (and even lumbering Chlen-beasts) have indeed been
tried. The pullers took arrowfire, and a few in the forefront would drop in
the traces. The "war-wagon" would then come to a disordered halt. blocking
advancing units behind.. Armouring the crew made the wagon slower and more
unwieldy. Armouring the wagon like a Roman "tortoise" made the whole thing
too slow for field battles and only useful for a siege. This is now the
sort of cultural no-no that is automatically rejected by present-day
generals.

>That in twenty-five thousand years, a time span enough to 'evolve'
>timber wolves into teacup poodles and English setters, that some nation
>like Haida Pakala did not long ago create 'two-legged horses'? Huge and
>massive humanoids built for speed and endurance in the long run (as humans
>themselves are; paleolithics often simply ran their prey to exhaustion--
>I've done it with my dog) who pull their masters' chariots not quite as
>fast as their terrestrial equine counterparts, perhaps, but again, can do
>so for vastly longer... (Though you might run the Boston Marathon, don't
>even -try- galloping a horse for forty-two kilometers non-stop, or even a
>third of that.)

Sounds good. Wish somebody had done it!

>There's no cultural 'blind spot' against humans carrying other
>humans, either-- litters are everywhere.

Absolutely correct. But pulling a wagon into a hail of enemy arrows and
quarrels wastes slaves and may not get you close enough for your troops to
disembark and join battle. Remember that Tekumel has no "knights" with
horses and better equipment than their commoner footmen. Some of the troops
in the "war-wagon" are likely to be of good clans, and they would feel
somewhat less than noble if they were ordered to ride into battle on a
slave-pulled wagon. "Are we then Dlel-fruit or Dna-grain? Hauled to market
like invalids? The foe can see us coming, riding high upon our wagons, and
they target their missiles upon us.:

>Only once, anywhere, at any time-- for the idea, and the, ah,
>creatures, to spread as far and fast as did the horse-drawn chariot.

Alas, no horses... A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse...!

>You're  s u r e  this has somehow just never happened?

Absolutely -- or at least not with enough success to made it seem important
enough to pass on.

Regards,
Phil
-----


//549


[Moderator's Note:  Peter Bismire has created a list of the geographical     ]
[                   location of all the Legion's headquarters.               ]

Eric's posting on the religious affiliation of Tsolyani legions has moved 
me to post a list I put together a while ago of the geographical locations 
of the legions headquarters.

The list also shows the type for each unit:
AH = Ahoggya
AR = Artillery
BW = Archers
CB = Crossbow
HI = Heavy infantry
HL = Hlaka
LI = Light infantry
MI = Medium infantry
MR = Marines
PC = Pe Choi
PL - Pachi Lei
SH = Shen
SL = Slingers
SP = Sappers


Aukesha
56	Legion of the Wind of Iron					CB

Avanthar
1	Omnipotent Azure Legion						HI

Bey Su
3	Legion of Potent Destiny					HI
4	Legion of Hnalla, Master of Light					HI
5	Legion of the Mighty Prince					HI
6	Legion of the Portals of Death					HI
14	Legion of the Ruby Hand						HI
42	Legion of Kaikama of Bey Su					MI
48	Regiment of the Clan of the Silver Lightning			BW
64	Legion of Lord Kaingmra of Bey Su				AR
72	Legion of the Splendour of Shenyu				SH
71	Legion of Ketl							XX

Butrus
8	Legion of the Givers of Sorrow					HI
78	Legion of the Forest of Hh-kk--ssa				PC
82	Legion of the Tangled Root Eaters				PL

Chene Ho
33	Aridani Legion of Lady Mrissa					MI
43	Legion of the Band of Mnerr					MI
47	Legion of the Black Band of Mirizha				MI
76	Legion of Tik-nekw-ket						PC

Fasiltum
10	Legion of the Searing Flame					HI
12	Legion of the Sweet Singers of Nakome				HI
50	Legion of the Clan of the Broken Bough				BW

Ganga
38	Legions of Defence Against Evil					MI

Hauma
45	Legion of Morusai the Chieftain					MI

Hekellu
xx	Legion of the Translucent Emerald				HI
34	Legion of the Many-Legged Serpent				MI
80	Legion of the Whistling Peak					HL

Jaikalor
25	Legion of Lord Langsha of Jaikalor				MI
84	Legion of the Dancer Without Eyes				AH

Jakalla
13	Legion of Serqu, Sword of the Empire				HI
21	Legion of Mighty Jakalla						HI
24	Legion of Gusha the Khirgari					MI
31	Legion of the Night of Shadows					MI
51	Legion of Girikteshmu						BW
65	Legion of Mengano the Jakallan					AR
67	Battalions of Vrishtara the Mole					SP
70	Squadrons of Tlaneno the Steersman				MR

Katalal
36	Forces of Lord Ga'anish of Katalal				MI
68	Slayers of Cities						SP

Khirgar
73	Legion of Gr-Ga the Egg Layer					SH
79	Legion of Tikik-dsa-ke						PC

Kurt Hills
63	Legion of the Inverted Hand					LI

Meku
54	Regiment of the Knower of Spells				CB

Mrelu
15	Legion of the Deep Purple Dark					HI
37	Regiment of Noble Ssiyor of Mrelu				MI

Paya Gupa
18	Legion of the Lord of Wisdom					HI
77	Legion of the Nest of Ttik-Deqeq					PC

Penom
17	Legion of the Fishers of Death					HI
39	Armoured Vision of Death					MI
69	Flotilla of Hagarr of Paranta					MR

Petris Layoda
61	Legion of the Twelve Paths of Avanthe				SL
85	Legion of Guruggma						AH

Purdimal
16	Legion of Heketh of Purdimal					HI
40	Legion of Chulin the Foreigner					MI
41	Legion of the Prince of the Blue Room				MI

Ru
53	Legion of the Crystalline Peak					BW

Sarku
9	Legion of the Scales of Brown					HI
26	Battalions of the Seal of the Worm				MI
49	Legion of the Peaks of Kraa					BW

Sarku, North of
55	Legion of Glorious Destiny					CB

Sokatis
2	First Legion of Ever-Present Glory				HI
22	Phalanx of Heretlekka of Sokatis				HI
23	Phalanx of Lord Durritlamish of the Rotted Face			MI
75	Horde of Hrk-ss, the Eater of Eggs				SH
81	Legion of Aerial Joy						HL

Thraya
29	Cohorts of Lord Chegarra, the Hero-King				MI
30	Legion of the Clan of the Golden Sphere				MI
66	Legion of Gagarsha of Mmillaka					AR

Thri'il
19	Legion of the Mace Raised High					HI
27	Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il					MI

Tleku
11	Legion of the Echoing Stone					HI

Tumissa
28	Golden Sunburst Legion						MI
32	Legion of the Lord of Red Devastation				MI
57	Legion of the Citadel of Glory					CB
58	Legion of Lord Kharihaya					CB

Tumissa, West of
83	Legion of the Deep Green Shade					PL

Tu'unmra
62	Legion of the Sapphire Kirtle					LI

Urmish
20	Legion of Lord Kurukaa						HI
59	Legion of the Clan of the Standing Stone			SL
74	Legion of the City of Chri					SH

Usenanu
46	Forces of Chai Miridai						MI
52	Legion of Elechu of Usenanu					BW

Vra
7	Legion of Mirkitani, Hero of Victories				HI
44	Battalions of Sruma of Vra					MI
60	Legion of the Joyful Clan of the Noble Vrayani			SL

??????
35	Legion of the Storm of Fire					MI


The number of units based in Bey Su is impressive but Sokatis is 
surprisingly large. Any comments?


Peter
-----


//550

[Moderator's Note:  Gordon Neff comments on Shawn's idea about when to base a]
[                   campaign (or how to change the base of a campaign from   ]
[                   one time period to another.                              ]
Shawn Bond sez:

>I have been thinking of involving my players in those halcyon days of the
>Petal Throne just before the war with Yan Kor.  I think it would be fun...

Y' know, there's another way to do that sort of thing also. Long
ago, I spotted this:

"Still further down and off to one side of (the present-day
Jakalla), the Bednalljan levels of the Underworld are said to contain the
rich tomb of Mnekshetra, the Lesbian mistress of Queen Nayari of the Silken
Thighs...

"In any case, attempting to open the tomb incorrectly is said to
result in the party's being transported back through time to stand face to
face with wrathful Nayari herself..."

Sure-- the first few times someone tries it. After a while,
though...

-Ding!- "Attention, please... Flight 442 from AS 2358 now
arriving..." Placards written in modern-day Tsolyani set up in the
now-reconverted 'throne room': 'This way to the surface'... Vendors selling
frynuts and worthless amulets to the newly-arrived 'immigrants'...

Even if it never gets THAT bad, that sort of rumor is going to
spark someone's fancy. Imagine-- all the well-known gold and diamond mines,
not yet dug...

What was apparently intended as a TRAP, might become a deliberate
OBJECTIVE.

(Heck, some bright boy might turn the well-trodden road to that
particular tomb into an Imperial-- or ecclesiastical-- dumping-ground for
recalcitrant felons-- don't bother killing them, just throw 'em right out
of the world, back 13,000 years-- you'll sure never hear from THEM
again...)


All of this assumes that you don't simply bungee-jump or otherwise
hurl yourself into the Crater of the Unstraightened City-- that's an
awfully long journey to reach, and there's no telling -where- you would end
up. (Though when that became an option in the game I was refereeing, I took
a hint from Lafferty's 'The World as Will and Wallpaper'-- the players
would end up wherever they -wanted- to end up, IF enough of them wanted it
STRONGLY enough...)

Scenarios or campaigns involving huge time-displacements are very
possible, and can be a lot of fun, under the right circumstances.

G.
-----


//551

From: Wayne Griffin Morrison <tewok@tis.com>
[Moderator's Note:  Wayne Morrision asks about the end of our world in     ]
[                   Tekumel's past.                                        ]

> Central America, parts of India, and a region on the Arabian peninsula
> escaped the total destruction of today's world that will occur in the year
> 2,012-3.

Isn't this about when the Long Count turns over to the next epoch?
As I recall, when that happens, this world will be destroyed by earthquakes.
Is there any information on just how today's world was destroyed?

[Moderator's Note:  As this is about 15 year away, I hope not...  Could you   ]
[                   elaborate a bit more?                                     ]

Thanks,
Wayne Morrison
-----


//552

 [Moderator's Note:  Gordon Neff asks about the 3 light drive.             ]

Nuno's original question.
>>7 - Did Prof. Barker ever elaborate on how the 3-light-drive and the
>>FTL technology worked ? Can you tell me the average speed or travel-time
>>of a spaceship ?

Professor's Answer
>Not a clue. I am not a technician! In fact I can barely use this computer.
>You'll have to inquire from one of the Pe Choi.

That's a question I've always wondered myself. That's an -awfully-
specific name to be so formless in concept. 'Three light?'

The name suggests a drive that 'travels' at 3c, and certainly that
would -help-, but to reach Tau Ceti, favored possibility of having
Earth-like planets, you're still looking at a voyage of four years
duration... one way.

[Moderator's Note:  When I spoke with Phil today, here is what he said about ]
[                   the 3 light drive.  There is not much known about it, of ]
[                   course, but he felt that the 3-lights referred to what   ]
[                   was seen of the ship entering FTL speeds from a companion]
[                   ship at a point somewhere nearby in regular space.       ]
[                   Apparently there are 3 "bursts" of light in succession as]
[                   the ships translate to FTL speeds.  More than this is    ]
[                   just not known. (I asked him what it looked like from the]
[                   cockpit/bridge, but he didn't know.)                     ]

Yeah-- I've wondered about that for a good many years.

Something ELSE I've wondered at the same time-- in the S & G
Sourcebook, the sun Tuleng is identified as 'Sinistra,' Nu Ophiuchi. I
suppose it would be possible to discover this through labor-intensive
research, but again, so specific a choice suggests that the answer is
already known--

How far away is Nu Ophiuchi? What light year distance is given for
it?

[Moderator's Note:  No idea.  Any astronomers amongst us?                    ]

P.S. I'm -still- wondering how quickly Chlen-hide rots. Is Grandfather's
armour still good, or will it kill the foolish scion who trusts in it?

[Moderator's Note:  I think the consensus was that the life of Chlen hide was]
[                   darn near close to that of bronze.  I don't think it rots]
[                   per se, but it might become brittle with time.  I think  ]
[                   that Grandpa's armour would be OK.  How far back, I don't]
[                   know.                                                    ]

Gordon
-----


//553

 [Moderator's Note:  Joe Saul writes about life expectancy on Tekumel.        ]

This isn't *exactly* on-topic, but it is relevant to Tekumel, and the 
response below pushed a personal hot button.

>10 - The lifetime expectancy in Tekumel is low.

Be very careful about using life expectancy figures for pre-industrial
cultures.  In fact, be cautious about life expectancy figures in general.  
They may not mean what you think they mean.

For example, there are sources which state that the average life expectancy 
for people in medieval Europe was 45 years.  Many, many fantasy authors and 
gamers (and not a few members of the popular press) infer from this that 
anyone over 50 was considered unimaginably ancient.  This is not true.  
That figure includes a staggering *child and infant mortality* rate, which 
drags the average age at death way way down.  In point of fact, many, if 
not most, children died before puberty.

(Side note:  if you've ever read the Icelandic Sagas, this is why one 
family might have two sons named Thorhall and a daughter named Thorhalla.  
They liked the name, and wanted to keep it in the family, so they hedged 
their bets.)

If you made it past birth, and past the vulnerable (to disease) childhood
years, you would likely live substantially longer than 45.  So before you 
use life expectancy numbers to determine what's considered "old" in a 
culture, find out whether they include the infant and child deaths.  What 
you really want to know is "if you make it past 12, how long can you 
expect to live."

Joe Saul
-----


//554

[Moderator's Note:  Peter Timko asks the following of the list and the    ]
[                   Professor.  Please feel free to comment everyone, and ]
[                   I'll collect them and post them together.             ]

I have a few questions which I'd be curious to hear from the list 
about, and a few perhaps best answered by Professor Barker. 

(Hello, Professor Barker.)

    Some time ago in this world (but only @ 2365 in Tekumel) I lost 
touch with a gentleman with whom I'd been dialectically interacting. 
His name was Ti'er (an attempt to give an appropriately different 
vowel structure for a verbal noun to the Arabic root t . y . r (I can't 
quite get the back "t" symbol on this email program) of the 
theoretical form I verb "tayara" -- to fly), and he was last seen in 
Fasiltum. He was a native of Haida Pakala only recently granted 
citizenship in Tsolyanu and accepted into the Black Y clan. As I 
moved away from the area of the GM -- who was not able to come up 
with the lineages associated with the Black Y, could you give me an 
idea of some of the major ones, and tell me (if you know) into which 
of them Ti'er was accepted? Also, is there a major temple affiliation 
of this clan. Finally, where might be found its most significant clan 
houses, and are there any in Fasiltum? If you know him, one Mokar 
hiScheschel of the OAL (a high officer, if he's to be believed) 
and Lord Qoruma hiRi'inyussa (of the OAL in Fasiltum) were the ones 
who ordered Ti'er about most often and may know where and if he is.

Ti'er was 24 at the time and a pawn of, alternately(?), the 
Omnipotent Azure Legion and the Vriddi of Fasiltum (he was even 
given a golden armband by Lord Tlaquru hiVriddi), both of which found 
him useful because of his skills and a psychic ability of 03 (which 
in the Swords and Glory rules made single-person magic not function 
on or near him) that rendered him a safe bearer of secret orders. The 
GM was attempting to run a sanctioned game, or so he claimed. Ti'er 
had most recently completed an assassination mission for the OAL on a 
target located but obviously not resident of the slums of Purdimal. 
His newly-adopted clan fathers had urged him to lay low after this 
mission, and placed him under cover as a chemist under the Black Hood 
clan, which I know has some Durritlamesh affiliation. Any significant 
lineages to that clan?

The general questions I have involve assassins and their place in 
Tsolyanu, and a question of etiquette in areas where there are few 
witnesses.

To quote an assassin's axiom from another plane, "The wise falcon
hides his claws." Would a similar thing be said in Tsolyanu? That is, 
to typically be effective, an assassin is best unspotted by his 
target and bodyguards, and anyone else in most cases. Yet anyone 
wearing the insignia of a clan like the Black Y which is associated 
with the assassin craft (unless I am most mistaken), would run that 
risk. So, given the importance of clan affiliation to the psyche of 
the Tsolyani, how would one go about squaring the personal need for 
identification with the professional need for distance? Are assassins 
(competent) just weird in their ability to balance this?

If my GM had a sense of how Tekumel and Tsolyanu when he had the 
clan leaders of the Black Y assign one of their own to a cover that 
included identification with another clan, that is a facet of 
Tsolyani society that I can't fit into the others. In _Man of Gold_, 
Lady Eyil hiVriyen claimed a different temple affiliation but 
maintained identification with her Green Kirtle Clan -- and that is 
something I can picture. But, again, given the psychological 
importance that clan plays for a Tsolyani (how much more for one 
whose family isn't even in the empire!), how does one manage to 
effectively pretend to be a part of one clan over a long period of 
time while actually belonging to another? The history of double 
agents and others who deliberately assume more than one identity to 
be typically strong personalities in the individualistic sense, and I 
know from my own visits to Tsolyanu that while such people may appear 
among the Tlakatoni and such clans as the Vriddi, they are 
extraordinarily rare. The only character in either novel who seemed 
remotely similar was Hele'a of Ghaton in MoG who only hid his 
political loyalties. From your vast experience of Tekumel and 
Tsolyanu, what makes people like these tick?

Finally, a general sort of question. In the depths of Purdimal's 
slums (where the hold of imperial law is, in most cases, tenuous due 
to the lack of interest of its officials) an (then low-mid status) 
foreigner who had been entrusted with orders he was not to share with 
the rest of the party selected by the OAL for their expertise was 
called for the umpteenth time "Thief" by an officer of the Golden 
Sunburst Legion (of the Golden Sunburst Clan). The officer clearly 
was infuriated by the prospect of taking direction from the foreigner 
and so resorted to this nasty name calling. The foreigner said quite 
grimly that the next time the officer said such a thing, it would be 
his last. Not being able to resist, the officer asked, "Why is that, 
little thief?" The foreigner, who was also an assassin, pulled forth 
his Summoner Upon the Way to point it in the officer's eye and said 
before shooting a poisoned bolt into the fool's eye, "Thieves don't 
carry these." The balance of the party were shocked by the act, but 
were then unwilling to face the assassin (if for no other reason that 
he was the only one in position to finalize the orders only he knew, 
and for which there was a dread penalty for incompletion), and no one 
liked the arrogant officer anyway. The question is, since the officer 
was requisitioned by the OAL, how likely are the Legion of the Golden 
Sunburst of his clan to really try to figure out what happened to 
their man? If the other members of the party did not report the 
incident (as was the case) but later choose to do so, what are the 
likely repercussions? At last, had the charges been made at the time 
uopn reporting back to the OAL officer who had ordered the mission, 
how much would the successful completion of a delicate mission 
minimize the consequences?

I thank one and all who took the time to read all this and reply.
    
Peter Timko
-----


//555

[Moderator's Note:  George Hammond writes about the following stuff seen in ]
[                   a local game store.                                     ]

Not sure if this is Blueroom material or not, but a new Gamescience Swords
& Glory at least seemed worthy of report.

Recently seen for sale at one of my local game stores:

Gamescience Swords and Glory Vol. 1, apparently new, shrink-wrapped $30

Different Worlds S&G Vol. 1, apparently new, unwrapped $12 )

Missum (miniatures rules) 2 copies, a bit shelfworn, but prob. new

Armies of Tekumel: Tsolyani, many copies (8? 10?) also a bit shelfworn but
prob new

One boxed Gardasiyal, new, $44

Complete set, TOME Adventures in Tekumel series (CharGen, Solo volumes
1-3, and Gardasiyal vol 1-3), unwrapped, mostly $12-$18 each.

The store in question (to which I have no connection):

The Underworld
1208 S. University
Ann Arbor, MI 48104
USA (in case it isn't obvious <g>.  MI=state of Michigan)
phone: 313-998-0547

regards,

George Hammond
-----


//556

[Moderator's Note:  Peter Timko offers up an excellent discussion about    ]
[                   Ditlana.                                               ]

Hello, companions.

    I write as a new arrival to the blue room, wishing contribute, as 
so many others have, through an application of my Terran skill to 
analysis of an issue in Tsolyanu. Might I suggest that from a 
political and sociological point of view, the current civil war, 
is a good thing? On this subject I would like to quote the visionary 
Orson Welles, who once noted: "In Italy for thirty years under the 
Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed, but they 
produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vince and the Renaissance. In 
Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of 
democracy and peace. And what did they produce? The cuckoo-clock."

[Moderator's Note:  And a numbered banking system...                      ]

    Never one to accept what is as eternal and uncaused, I wondered 
why the _ditlana_ ever came about in the first place. As both a 
professional and academic political researcher, I see politics 
everywhere. And while there is not much in the way of formal 
politics in Tsolyanu (as in Saudi Arabia, e.g.), there certainly 
is an abundance of informal things which are largely political in 
consequence, if not always in intent. Not knowing the history of 
Tsolyanu as well as many, I came up with the following hypothesis 
concerning the role of the _ditlana_.

    Basically, in a place as hoarily tradition-bound as Tsolyanu, 
things tend to accumulate over time, since there are few reasons to 
discard anything which has not ceased to serve its function, even 
when its function ceased to be relevant or needed. (Kind of like the 
old corporate culture at IBM.) In reverence to great ancestors and the 
pronouncements of clan elders, the temple hierarchies and Imperial 
officials of the past, the baroque (by Terran standards) architecture 
of Tsolyani society and everything in it became sufficiently 
embellished/adorned/encrusted as to become ill.

    The _ditlana_ served, like a Terran move from house to house writ 
exceedingly large, to force clans and temples and governors to 
differentiate between the essential (in Tsolyani terms) and that 
which can be set aside -- not because anyone would have made such a 
distinction before but, because we can't take EVERYTHING, we must 
perforce choose SOME things over others. I can only imagine what 
benefit this had socio-politically. With the "loss" of what had been 
necessary before, the great clans and temples must spend time gaining 
"new" things to replace those lost things which added to knowledge or 
prestige or comfort, et. al. Moreover, the great clans have perhaps 
less time and energy and money left over from these other pursuits 
than before the _ditlana_, so some cabals, costly alliances and 
elaborate plans get abadoned in favor of more immediate and material 
concerns. Meanwhile, the temples would be correspondingly more 
inclined to focus inward to reassess what they actually now still 
have access to (something that even the Temples of Thumis and Ksarul 
are far from perfect at now); and consequently are unable to maintain 
the same level of complex political maneuvering of the immediately 
pre-_ditlana_ era.

   From a more theological standpoint, the _ditlana_ might be 
something of a compromise between Stability and Change. If the empire 
went the way Tsolyani law prescribes, there would be very little that 
seemed to change in the lifetime of three generations or more. Beyond 
that, a largely illiterate society, bound by tradition and not at all 
prone to critical questioning, could easily come to perceive 
Stability as the natural order of things. Yet with a _ditlana_ every 
half millenium or so, there become markers for a time when "this 
was/was not there" and in that sense, if no other, Change marks the 
life of the imperium as well as Stability. (Perhaps this also 
suggests why the temples of Change have greater practical knowledge 
of the under-cities than those of Stability. The _ditlana_ is a 
comfortable part of the _weltanschauung_ of those who serve Change, 
while it would not seem to fit as well into that of those who 
serve Stability. This would be particularly true if, as it seems, the 
ditlana was proclaimed by the emperor when the emperor chose, not 
according to some set schedule of date.)

    But currently, in Tsolyanu, there has been no _ditlana_ for more 
than 800 years. None of the benefits of the ceremony noted above are 
present. Instead, we have very powerful clans able to successfully 
contribute to those who oppose the Emperor; and even while the temple 
people Avanthar have accepted and laid on the legitimacy of he who 
currently occupies the Petal Throne, it is clear that significant and 
potent factions within the temples of Vimuhla, Karakan and Ksarul (at 
least) haven't accepted it. Had such a situation occurred 500 or 600 
years ago, would the power of imperium be so weak as to encourage 
such seditious behavior? To tentatively borrow a metaphor from old 
Britannia (to make a point in this essay, not to create a sinful 
example of foreign elocution in Tsolyani), the ship of state over-
encrusted with barnacles need not fear the appearance of an _akho_ 
(of state), since it will inevitably sink into the arms of the 
creature at the sign of the first storm. Hence, perhaps, the current 
civil war -- particularly if the next emperor is able to pull the 
empire together again to defeat Baron Ald and his Red Hat allies -- 
would serve the purpose that the _ditlana_ might have served. (My bet 
would be on Mirusiya, with something being worked out with Eselne.) 
Such an emperor might style himself "The Cleansing Flame" -- a nice 
tribute to Vimuhla and a link to the last Emperor who ordered a 
_ditlana_: Hijekka IV, "Restorer of Dignities."

    A _ditlana_ might have well been easier than the present 
circumstances, but it would have brought fewer cabals to the surfance 
and would have left more corrupted (in the physical, not moral, 
sense) socio-political structures in place than today's current 
strife. This storm cloud, mayhap, need not have come; but that is the 
silver lining I see in it now that it's here. Comments, particularly 
those to the contrary, are most welcome. Dialectically,

Peter (Chico) Timko
-----


//557

[Moderator's Note:  Matthew Pook offers the following.                      ]

Below is a review of the original EPT RPG. This is for a small press
publication devoted to second hand games. I thought that you would like
to see this before I send it off. 
===================================================

Empire of the Petal Throne
Role-Playing Game, TSR, 1975.

Empire of the Petal Throne is certainly one of the oldest RPGs, and is
perhaps the eldest of all. It was TSR's second fantasy RPG, published a
year after Dungeons & Dragons and the same year as Boot Hill. At the
time only Flying Buffalo's Tunnels & Trolls competed against those
three. Yet of these four, which survive now? Obviously, and despite
TSR's recent financial difficulties, D&D continues. Nobody plays T&T
(all right, so prove me wrong), and the Western genre has been
supplanted by a wild and weird West. Empire of the Petal Throne (EPT)
has survived, but not easily and its future is uncertain bar the
devotions of its followers. So what is EPT and why has it survived?

EPT is set on the planet Tekumel, a resort world for the citizens of an
interstellar human empire. Some 60,000 years from now this world is
ripped asunder from our dimension and enclosed in one of its own.
Neither residents nor tourists can maintain their high technology and as
civilisation falls, they must return to a very basic subsistence
lifestyle, for Tekumel is resource poor and they are beset by many of
the alien races that man has placed in reservoirs on the planet. Much
time passes. The earliest known history is 25,000 years in the past and
is mere fragments. The emperors that sit upon the Petal Throne of the
nation of Tsolyanu have ruled for only 2,500 years. Another four similar
empires of man surround Tsolyanu.

The society and culture of Tsolyanu is nothing like you have seen
before. Although this is a fantasy RPG, it eschews their employment of
the typical medieval or Graeco-Roman paradigms. As such Tsolyanu is not
based upon any model of western society or history. Instead it seems to
look to South America, India and South-East Asia. Think Aztec, Mayan,
India prior to the arrival of the East India company, Tibet and
Thailand. These are not entirely apt descriptions, but they serve to
point you in the right direction.

Tsolyani society is highly organised and everyone knows their place in
it. Family and clan status is very important to identity, as is their
religion. The illiterate majority conform to their family and clan
occupations and religions, but the players will mostly come from
lineages and clans of higher status that may allow them some mobility
and choice. Government comes in the form of the Emperor, the
administrative palaces and the temples. Service to these is regarded as
highly honourable, and is often the key to advancement. Religion is a
pervading influence in daily life, and is keyed around the worship of
ten gods and their cohorts. Split equally between the Lords of Stability
and of Change, not only are these gods very real, being actual higher
lifeforms, but they are involved in a cold war between themselves, using
their worshippers as pawns. Given this, an idea such as atheism would
not even occur to a native of Tsolyanu.

Traditionally the players are unaware of much of this. In the classic 
game they begin as fishermen from a distant tribe that have travelled 
from islands far to the south, arriving at the docks of Jakalla. There
to be confronted by the heavy Tsolyanu bureaucracy.  Until such times 
as they can find employment and thus the temporary patronage of some 
Tsolyani clansman, they are confined to the foreign quarter of the city. 
At the very least they will need a guide as they have no knowledge of 
the intricate rules governing the etiquette that Tsolyani natives love
so much. Their eventual aim is adoption by a clan and thus Tsolyani
citizenship. In later versions of the game, rules and guidelines are 
provided so that players can create Tsolyani natives.

The setting of EPT is the creation of one man, M. A. R. Barker, a
professor of South-East Asian Studies, now retired . As a boy he had
created the world in which to wargame with friends and he kept
developing Tekumel as an adult. Part of this development had been
linguistic in the form. Not only does Tsolyanu have its own language,
but so do the other four empires, and learning to at least pronounce
some Tsolyani, is a helpful aid to play.

The 1975 TSR rules were the first to be published and marked a departure
from the three small booklets and box format that was the norm. It was a
black and white spiral bound book, on heavy stock, illustrated by Barker
himself. These are pen and ink drawings which are almost of a
professional standard and add much to the atmosphere of the game. In
addition to the rulebook, there was a reference sheet and three maps.
These are quite gorgeous, showing in bright colours the Northern
continent which is home to Tsolyanu, as well as a plan of the city of
Jakalla. All are on heavy stock with a protective plastic coating, and
with their numbered hex grid, have been used as reference for many
subsequent publications, all of them from different companies and
despite the fact that the TSR rules had long been out of print. The game
came in a zip-lock bag or boxed, this having coloured artwork.

The rules for creating characters can clearly be seen as derived from
D&D, but develops them a little further. Attributes are percentile
based, with Psychic Ability and Comeliness replacing Wisdom and
Charisma. There are only three character professions, Warrior, Magic
User and Priests, and only the Warrior does not receive spells.
Alignment is confined to just Good and Evil, though such a  distinction
feel at odds with the world that Barker describes. Finally players roll
for skills, and since they are broken down into plebeian, skilled and
noble tables, they also serve to indicate the social status of each
player. After this, they roll for skills pertaining to their profession,
which can also be learnt as they progress in levels. For the remainder
of the rules, EPT is clearly a D&D clone, but they are effective in
their simplicity, and by tying them to a specific setting, are better
than the originals.

The problem comes when trying to play the game. Although the thrust of
the game is interaction with a very alien culture, both to players and
characters, it is not supported in the rules. Rather, these favour the
exploration of the Underworld. In other words, a dungeon crawl. The
Underworld exists on Tekumel, created as tombs for the dead, as temple
complexes, and as the remnants of buildings leftover  from the process
of pulling whole cities down and rebuilding anew every five centuries.
But its exploration is seen as really dishonourable, mostly confined to
tombrobbers. The influence of D&D can be seen here in all its vain
glory.

Despite EPT being highly popular with TSR, the game was not successful.
The fault for this is twofold. Partly it lies with the impenetrable
nature of the game with its highly developed history, background and of
course, the languages. Whilst this contributes greatly to the feeling
and atmosphere of EPT, not everyone wants to learn. In comparison, you
can play a Klingon in Star Trek, and an Elf in Middle Earth, without
having to learn a word of Klingon or Sindar, though doing so might add
to the enjoyment of the game. Yet this is not possible in EPT. The
second problem was the game's price, which was dictated by its deluxe
format. D&D cost just $10. EPT cost $27.50, which made it very expensive
in comparison. This is something that has dogged the game even into its
latest incarnation.

Yet despite these problems the game found a home with a devoted few. It
required dedication to play. Its culture depth and resulting atmosphere,
led to an immersive experience. Compare with the shallowness of opening
the door, ethnically cleansing any occupants and running off with their
treasure, that was D&D (and at its heart, is still) of the time. The
game is still played by many of those devotees both in the USA and the
UK, despite a very potted and ragged publishing history, which includes
four publishers to date. This has restricted widespread popularity, as
has the fact that  none of its fans can really agree on a set of rules
for the game. Like so many games, EPT has found a home on the Internet,
and in particular has a very good mailing list to which Professor Barker
has access. Through this, fans can be kept abreast of events in his own,
the official campaign, as well as asking him questions about Tekumel.

For those wanting to try EPT, it can be difficult to find a game.
Occasionally events are run at conventions and this would be a good way
in which to try it. Another way to get a taster would be to read 'Man of
Gold', one of Professor Barker's novels, that though long out of print,
can be found second hand. Finding any of the rules is less easy as they
rarely turn up second hand, and if they do, are quickly snapped up.

The TSR edition of Empire of the Petal Throne could be said to be one
the grails of role-playing. Highly sought after, a copy in mint
condition, with all three maps, will cost the buyer at least 60, if not
more. At auction, this price can be as high as 200, and both will be
higher if the game is still in its box. For the less discerning, there
is a cheaper alternative. Different Worlds Publishing reprinted the TSR
rules in 1986, but without the colourful maps. Again this is out of
print (notice a pattern here?), but makes it far cheaper, perhaps 15 at
the most. 

However you get into EPT, it can be a rewarding experience. The depth
and feeling of the world and cultures that have been written into it,
make for a game that is more alien and more immersive than any other
role-playing game.  Its creation has not the feeling of artifice, but
one of growth and evolution. Though it may be difficult to get into, the
effort, I feel will be worth it.


-- 
Pookie
URL: http://arts.falmouth.ac.uk/journalism/PAGES/Welcome.htm

-----


//558

[Moderator's Note:  The next batch of 10-15 messages will contain many con-  ]
[                   densed messages.  I have accumulated many messages on the]
[                   same topic, and put them together.  Since there is a long]
[                   message backlog and a finite amount of time to get them  ]
[                   out, I'll resort to this.  This message refers to Peter  ]
[                   Bismire's Legion HQ list.  First the Professor comments, ]
[                   and then Wes Postlethwaite makes an observation.         ]

[Professor Barker's Comments]
Excellent list! Various legions have moved, a couple have been disbanded or
were wiped out, and some have been augmented. New legions? Just a couple
that came out of the period just before the Civil War. Other new unitd have
tended to be integrated into existing legions, without regard for the
limitation to 20 Cohorts.

Thanks for doing this!

Phil
---

[Wes' Comments]
I was surprsed to see in the midst of a "Civil War" that Legions of warring
faction s share the same city for a Head Quarters.  Most notably Legion of
Red Devastation in Tumissa.  The Governor is a Flame worshipper but staying
loyal to the Emperor while possibly helping the Flame Prince?
-----


//559

[Moderator's Note:  This message deals with topic of change on Tekumel, and  ]
[                   how different cultures look at change.   Gordon Neff     ]
[                   makes 2 comments, and is followed by Ian Atkinson.       ]

[Gordon's 1st Comments]
>Meanwhile, I have some mail for you.  Here is a summons to the Palace of 
>of the Realm to meet with representatives of the Imperial Couriers and 
>the Blazing Sword Clan -- seems that fellow didn't like being bound to
>your two-wheeled contraption.  Speaking of which, several clanmasters from
>the carter's clans are waiting outside the clanhouse to speak with you
>about your infringement of their occupation.  Then there are some military
>officers waiting to speak with you about your 'innovation' which apparently
>violates a treaty we made with the Sa'a Allaqiani in fourth century A.S.
>Oh, and here's a dispatch from the Hirilakte arena - apparently you're
>to appear in a duel with one Adlar hiFershena, and aggrieved Imperial 
>Courier with rope burns and one of the best swordsmen of the valley of
>Kashkomai...

        Chris:

        You know, in all this time I've never dared even MENTION one thing
that my players introduced when they were bashing around with various
get-rich-quick schemes-- one of the players showed me where he'd learned
about this, and it was fascinating. (To me, anyway.)
        It was a little gimmick dreamed up in France for Napoleon's use; he
tried it and it worked splendidly. It's a semaphore telegraph.
        You have a pole with two movable arms and flags thereon. A man with
a telescope stands at its base, looking downrange at the previous pole.
What its arms do, he tells his assistant to do. Beyond him, another man is
watching HIS pole, and so on. The arms are racheted to 'stick' at 45 degree
intervals to avoid ambiguity-- up, quarter, straight, quarter, down.
        In its field trial, it brought a message from the coast to Paris a
full twelve hours ahead of the fastest horse-relay messenger.

        On Tekumel, where 'fighting sail' hasn't denuded the forests and
where telescopes are all but unknown, the semaphores are made VASTLY bigger
to allow for the same distances between. Mounted either cross-country or on
the Sakbe Roads, they would shave DAYS off of any military or Imperial
message carried by jogging courier. Theoretically, reports from a a field
commander could get to Avanthe the same day they were sent!
        I suppose the Imperial Couriers and the Blazing Sword Clan wouldn't
be too thrilled with THAT innovation, either...

-- G.

-- As an exercise for the alert reader, can you tell me the single biggest
pitfall with this system? Hint: What range limits might exist?
---

[More Comments from Gordon]
        'Some of the troops in the "war-wagon" are likely to be of good
clans, and they would feel somewhat less than noble if they were ordered to
ride into battle on a slave-pulled wagon. "Are we then Dlel-fruit or
Dna-grain? Hauled to market like invalids? The foe can see us coming,
riding high upon our wagons, and they target their missiles upon us."'

        Now, see, that's marvelous. That's why I've always liked Tekumel--
what pseudo-European society on an unexplained Earth-twin would even
-think- of that?
        That certainly answers the question, far and away-- though a
niggling little voice reminds me of how equally 'disgusting' and 'shameful'
the Japanese samurai felt the use of European guns to be. They swallowed
their dudgeon quickly enough, though, after watching their entire battle
line get -waxed-...

        'Wagons pulled by humans (and even lumbering Chlen-beasts) have
indeed been tried. The pullers took arrowfire, and a few in the forefront
would drop in the traces. The "war-wagon" would then come to a disordered
halt, blocking advancing units behind... Armouring the wagon like a Roman
"tortoise" made the whole thing too slow for field battles and only useful
for a siege. This is now the sort of cultural no-no that is automatically
rejected by present-day generals.'

        That, also, answers my query-- indeed, turns it back on itself
adroitly.
        '(Humans) who pull their masters' chariots not quite as fast as
their terrestrial equine counterparts, perhaps, but again, can do so for
vastly longer...'
        Except that in the absence of that speed, they do, indeed, get SHOT
more easily.
        Oh, well...

        It IS difficult for a Western mentality to understand, of course,
raised on our historically unprecedented practice of putting two ideas
together and making a third-- that 'one and one make three.' I made a
comment earlier that I told Chris not to bother publishing, about that
whole 'gunpowder' business.
        'My players keep asking why some enterprising young priest-scholar
just does not combine sulphur, charcoal, and saltpetre and produce
gunpowder. This, again, is a view from "hindsight."'
        I had read in the Sourcebook that it -had- been invented, but
laughed to scorn because of the superior pyrotechnics sorcery could
produce. True-- the early cannon produced far more flash and smoke than
real damage.
        The reason why anyone used them, was simply that anyone -could- use
them.  An expert longbowman could kill six musketeers or crossbowmen while
they were gearing up to fire once. But that expert was the product of years
of intensive training-- he was expensive. Crossbows and muskets were easier
to learn and easier to use, and whole -armies- of them could take the field
in the time it took for one 'master bowman' to learn his craft-- and then
he got his head blown off.
        Certainly, sorcery was more powerful-- but for how few people,
after how many years of dedicated training?

        Where I felt this might apply was in the earlier discussion of
'battle magic.' Stated simply, if an entire Legion has learned a
nursery-rhyme mnemonic which produces a basic 'kill' spell, they're going
to mop up the field while the real, heavy sorcerors are still cooking up
their first astral whammy. Of course, any 'one on one' contest would be
ludicrous, just as one musketeer against a longbowman would be doomed-- but
the mass attack is what counts, just as with smoothbore muskets.
        As I said to Chris, who -cares- if a given musket can't hit the
side of a barn, if you've just touched off a hundred of them? They're all
going to hit -somewhere-...


        Much the same reasoning went into my discussion of bronze. People
are GONNA use what works, tradition be blowed; what use is a dead
traditionalist?
        Certainly, a hardwood kendo stick is light and cheap, easy to carry
and no horrific penalty if lost. It will also get me KILLED, if I am stupid
enough to use it against an enemy carrying a real katana.

[Moderator's Note:  Tell that to Musashi...                                  ]

        'Obtaining bronze swords for the entire Tsolyani army would be a
major drain on the Empire's fiscal reserves.' When annihilation is the
alternative, define 'major drain.'

        What sank my whole argument was the confirmation that Chlen-hide
actually IS every bit as hard as bronze. That changes everything. If bronze
has no advantage, then its disadvantages of expense are unacceptable. All
of this makes perfect sense, and indeed, Chlen-hide becomes truly marvelous
stuff.
        Otherwise-- if Chlen-hide were even -slightly- inferior in
hardness...
        'Wielding a heavy weapon in battle (loaded with armour, etc.) is a
lot less appealing than whacking away with a lighter (= faster?) Chlen-hide
blade.' Unless your blade shears through theirs like Hittite iron through
Sumerian copper...
        Medieval knights were strong as Superman from swinging those
thirty-pound swords around all day. I'm sure they'd have loved lighter
weapons-- loved they not their LIVES more...
        'If you lose, you can get away faster, too...' Good thing, too,
that being your only option at that point.

        However, in retrospect the very persistence of Chlen-hide should
have indicated this to me.
        'The sources for copper and tin are separated by about half of the
sprawling Tsolyani Empire, and slave caravans are incredibly slow. Bronze
is sought after, but it could never replace Chlen-hide for economic
reasons.'
        Right. When your copper is in Spain and your tin is in Cornwall,
TELL me about transportation problems. But there were fortunes to be made
by whoever overcame them-- and presto! Ships sailed and trade routes ran
across Western Europe in all directions.
        Obviously, there was no such incentive here.

        -- I must say, I -am- delighted to be here.

                -- Gordon.

P.S. 'Meanwhile, I have some mail for you.  Here is a summons to the Palace
of the Realm to meet with representatives of the Imperial Couriers and  the
Blazing Sword Clan -- seems that fellow didn't like being bound to your
two-wheeled contraption.  Speaking of which, several clanmasters from the
carter's clans are waiting outside the clanhouse to speak with you about
your infringement of their occupation.  Then there are some military
officers waiting to speak with you about your 'innovation' which apparently
violates a treaty we made with the Sa'a Allaqiani in fourth century A.S.
Oh, and here's a dispatch from the Hirilakte arena - apparently you're to
appear in a duel with one Adlar hiFershena, and aggrieved Imperial Courier
with rope burns and one of the best swordsmen of the valley of
Kashkomai...'

        Si eppur muoeve...
---

[Ian Atkinson's comments]

This comment relates to message 546 from Gordon Neff.

Your application to the Temple of Ksarul for funding for a program to
breed a sub-human race of mutant porters that can serve as steeds in a
chariotry-style formation has not been approved.  The Temple has several
long-term projects of miscegenation underway and it is felt that your
proposal, intriguing as it is, would divert resources unnecessarily and
that continued support over the required number of centuries is unlikely
to be forthcoming.  You may request information about the works in
progress that have higher priority than your proposal but after telling
you we would have to kill you.

Our principal reservation is that a chariot can be obtained relatively
easily by current sorcerous techniques [see The Winged Disk of the Lord of
the Sun, spell number 123 in the Gardasiyal sorcery book].

Also, we know that breeding dogs intensively for particular physical
characteristics often produces lines that are temperamentally quirky
[vicious poodles, idiotic corgis, etc].  The hard part of the breeding
program would be making mutants that are sufficiently intelligent and
endowed with the right combination of bravery and obedience to be of
practical use on the battlefield.  Even dogs, which have been bred to be
very useful in circumstances of individual combat and bodyguarding, have
never been used in pitched battles as they tend to lose discipline under
such stressful situations.  With sorcery all manner of abominations and
monstrosities can be produced.  Some of them are useful in various ways,
such as guarding, spying, individual combat, storing psychic power, but
the battlefield is a uniquely testing environment for such creations and
is best left to regular soldiers, military sorcerors and demons of martial
natures. 

- Ian Atkinson.
-----


//560

[Moderator's Note:  This message deals with the Long Count mentioned in      ]
[                   Message 551.  The Professor replies, and Gordon Neff adds]
[                   a couple of comments.                                    ]

[The Professor Says...]
Yes, the Maya Long Count comes to the end of its major cycle in 2012. There
is an obvious connection: the Maya were among those who survived the
cataclysm that brought about the "Cloudless Sky": the long afternoon of
high technology, starships, contact with other species, trade, and
eventually -- thousands of years down the road -- Tekumel. The planet was
later transported into a dimensional bubble, as most of you know, which
left it and its solar system all alone.

The records speak of the "Cataclysm of the First Annihilation," which I
assumed meant the great destruction of 2012-13. It is said that this came
about because somebody in one of the fragmented Russian republics
accidentally (?) fired off his left-over nuclear missiles, which then
caused others -- some on automatic -- to fire back. These were very "dirty"
bombs, which spread clouds of radioactivity and nuclear winter all over the
Earth.

If you have kids, see about enlisting them in the army -- and then
transferring them to the great subterranean base at Cheyenne Mountain! (Is
that its name?) Or they can become guides in the Mammoth Cave... Or perhaps
take them to Saudi Arabia or Guatemala??? As I recall, some of the European
and Noth American residents of those localities did survive. Some
intermarried, others were slain by angry mobs, and a few managed to keep
their heritages alive for a while. None that I know of, however, maintained
their ethnic or group identity up to the great push out into space. By that
time the Terran population was fairly homogeneous, rather like the
Tekumelani today.

I know I will not be around until 2012. All I can do, thus, is wish you
well and hope you manage to "get out of Dodge" before it is gone.

Happy survival!

Regards,

Phil
---
[Gordon's Comments...]

>>Central America, parts of India, and a region on the Arabian peninsula
>>escaped the total destruction of today's world that will occur in the year
>>2,012-3.

>Isn't this about when the Long Count turns over to the next epoch?
>As I recall, when that happens, this world will be destroyed by
>earthquakes.
>Is there any information on just how today's world was destroyed?

>[Moderator's Note:  As this is about 15 year away, I hope not...  Could you ]
[                   elaborate a bit more?                                    ]

        Chris:

        Of course, it is long graven in stone that -something- like this
occurred, and there is a comment in the Sourcebook about Mayan and Arabic
becoming the interstellar lingua franca (whew-- foreigners think ENGLISH is
difficult to learn!) but somehow, it seems an incomplete picture. After
all, as Tekumel itself shows clearly, a world is an awfully BIG place...

        Is it not more likely that these are merely the ethnic sources of
the settlers of Tekumel itself-- that is, of the known regions thereon?
(Who knows -what- was deposited elsewhere.) If a world is big, Space is a
Whole Lot Bigger, and an interstellar human civilization would be such a
hugely dispersed Diaspora that entirely separate -species- of humanity
would eventually emerge.

        It just seems more likely that this 'lingua franca' is a relatively
local institution... 'local' being an extremely relative term, of course...

        In short, 'the rulers of Humanspace' might simply be the rulers of
-this- neck of the woods. They might not-- indeed, almost certainly would
not know how many OTHER such empires of humanity exist out there among the
stars...

        Even if the Northern Hemisphere got wiped in toto, as the
surviving, roughly Equatorial locations suggest, you tell me how Australia,
South Africa and Argentina managed to dry up and blow away as well.

        Prof Barker says he knows little about those other 772 vanished
worlds; I'll lay cash on a number of them having an Afrikaan-Zulu-Boer
base...

--G.
---

[Gordon Continues...]

        Plus:

        "Is it not more likely that these are merely the ethnic sources of
the settlers of Tekumel itself-- that is, of the known regions thereon?
(Who knows -what- was deposited elsewhere.)
        "In short, 'the rulers of Humanspace' might simply be the rulers of
-this- neck of the woods. They might not-- indeed, almost certainly would
not know how many OTHER such empires of humanity exist out there among the
stars..."

        Bear in mind, this does not in any way invalidate what the
Professor was saying. Just as the Mesopotamian legend-spinners who told of
Noah's Ark knew nothing of Khasisatra of Chaldea and -his- ark, or
Deucalion of Aramaea and -his- ark, nor that of the Indian Manu, nor
certainly of the ark floated by Central America's Coxcox and his wife
Xochiquetzal-- and so spoke of Noah's family as being the only surviving
humanity--

        Just so would it be 'fact,' especially after ten thousand years or
so, that ONLY 'Central America, parts of India, and a region on the Arabian
peninsula survived.'

        After all, the Mesopotamians never met the Mayans, never even heard
of 'em-- they literally knew no better than to believe their own version of
events. Expanding slowly through infinite space, unbounded by one round
world, it's even -less- likely that the culture which settled Tekumel would
ever have encountered any hint of the other fragments' existence.
        Naturally they speak of being alone. They -are-...

G.
-----


//561

[Moderator's Note:  This message includes comments about the 3-Light drive  ]
[                   from Keith Dalluhn, some more from the Professor.  There]
[                   are also some tidbits on Chlen hide from the Professor, ]
[                   and Stephen Foster writes about Tekumel's Sun.          ]

[Keith's respone...]
>[Moderator's Note:  Gordon Neff asks about the 3 light drive.             ]
>
>Nuno's original question.
>>>7 - Did Prof. Barker ever elaborate on how the 3-light-drive and the
>>>FTL technology worked ? Can you tell me the average speed or travel-time
>>>of a spaceship ?
>
>Professor's Answer
>>Not a clue. I am not a technician! In fact I can barely use this computer.
>>You'll have to inquire from one of the Pe Choi.
>
>That's a question I've always wondered myself. That's an -awfully-
>specific name to be so formless in concept. 'Three light?'
>
>The name suggests a drive that 'travels' at 3c, and certainly that
>would -help-, but to reach Tau Ceti, favored possibility of having
>Earth-like planets, you're still looking at a voyage of four years
>duration... one way.
>
>[Moderator's Note:  When I spoke with Phil today, here is what he said about ]
>[                   the 3 light drive.  There is not much known about it, of ]
>[                   course, but he felt that the 3-lights referred to what   ]
>[                   was seen of the ship entering FTL speeds from a companion]
>[                   ship at a point somewhere nearby in regular space.       ]
>[                   Apparently there are 3 "bursts" of light in succession as]
>[                   the ships translate to FTL speeds.  More than this is    ]
>[                   just not known. (I asked him what it looked like from the]
>[                   cockpit/bridge, but he didn't know.)                     ]
>
>Yeah-- I've wondered about that for a good many years.

My character, Sanjesh hiKirisaya, has had a few adventures on interstellar
ships, and here are some excerpts from his journals on the matter of the
3-light drive and interstellar travel:

.....soon after the battle started we could see that their battle magics
were much more powerfull than ours.  We tried a few attacks but to no
avail.  I pulled out the interfogulator that Prince Reresqala had given me
and turned it on as a last ditch effort.  Once started, the device created
a dome shaped matrix of blue light.  It started out about as big as the
courtyard outside the clanhouse in Usenanu.  The feeling inside was
strange, as though the skin to other planar power had become thicker
somehow.  The battle raged on around me, but it was hazy.  As I turned the
dial on the left, the dome grew larger and larger untill it covered the
entire battlefield.  The battle magics quickly subsided and our troops were
able to over come the Salarvyani.........

....I keep going back to the old mark 5 interfogulator in the basement.  I
can't help but think how nice it would be to find a place large enough and
get back and get that mark 200 out of that ship and bring it back.......

.....Horodai and I spoke again today.  He knows far more than I give him
credit for somedays.  Together we were able to discern that not only will
an interfogulator stop magic, it does so by slicing the planes around it
into nice uniform pieces.  I am thinking that by casting a nexus point spell
from the inside you could open a gate to a different plane rather simply.
I will have to dig up that eye........

....Ais says I am crazy.  She is probably right.  I turned on the
interfogulator this evening, and by nightfall, the OAL had arrived.  Said
they had noticed a huge use of magic here earlier in the day.  I explained
that we had had a Thumis ritual and had invoked Thumis himself.  I don't
think they believed me, but left without another word......

.....I had often wondered how those huge ships of the ancients had been
able to travel so fast between places.  I may have discovered how.  The
interfogulator is an intergral part I believe.  With it a ship would be
able to create a grid around itself of perfectly inter-sliced planes.  It
would then be a simple matter to move the ship toward one of these
intersections with a known destination and blast THROUGH the spaces the
interfogulator created to get to the new plane quickly and safely.....

-Keith
---

[The Professor Adds...]
I can't say much more about the Three Light Drive. As I said, I am no
engineer, and the science for it comes from the Pe Choi. I suppose Gene
Roddenberry would have to reply similarly if somebody asked him about the
science upon which StarTrek  "Transporter" technology is based. I have
heard that this is considered scientifically impossible on all counts.
Phasers, communicators, etc. may indeed be feasible, however, given time
and research to develop them. But my scientist colleagues all agree that
you just cannot dissolve somebody to constituent atoms and "beam" him down
to a planet or two another ship.

>Something ELSE I've wondered at the same time-- in the S & G
>Sourcebook, the sun Tuleng is identified as 'Sinistra,' Nu Ophiuchi. I
>suppose it would be possible to discover this through labor-intensive
>research, but again, so specific a choice suggests that the answer is
>already known--

Yes, the planets which "disappeared" into Other-Space are known.There's an
Engsvanyali poem (based on a Bednalljan or even Dragon Warrior precursor)
that names Tuleng as the Left Hand (Sinistra) of the Serpent Sky (Ophiology
"the study of snakes").

>How far away is Nu Ophiuchi? What light year distance is given for
>it?

I had this information once, but I can't lay my hands upon it now. Sorry!

>P.S. I'm -still- wondering how quickly Chlen-hide rots. Is Grandfather's
>armour still good, or will it kill the foolish scion who trusts in it?
>
>[Moderator's Note:  I think the consensus was that the life of Chlen hide was]
>[                   darn near close to that of bronze.  I don't think it rots]
>[                   per se, but it might become brittle with time.  I think  ]
>[                   that Grandpa's armour would be OK.  How far back, I don't]
>[                   know.                                                    ]

Chlen-hide gets brittle. The "tanning" process keeps it from "rotting"
(unless buried in moist earth or kept underwater). When it becomes brittle,
however, a sword will snap like a twig, and armour smashes like poor
pottery. As you say, Chris, Grandpa's armour might still be all right, if
stored in a dry, warm place, but I wouldn't trust it!

Regards,

Phil
---

[Stephen Foster adds...]

My records indicate that it lies about 150 light years away and is a giant 
star of spectral class K0III. It has an absolute magnitude of about -5, 
which would make it about 10,000 time brighter than the Sun. It's probably 
a massive star with a short life-span before it goes "kablooie" in some 
style. It's unlikely to have planets and it's too young for life to have 
evolved even if it did.

Not only that, it isn't even accepted generally as a "named" star, and is 
usually just referred to as Nu Ophiuchi or 64 Ophiuchi

Still, that's only the real world...

[Moderator's Note:  Thanks for chasing that down Steve!                     ]

Steve
-----


//562

[Moderator's Note:  Alan Brain offers another idea on Chlen Hide, and some   ]
[                   insight to different cultures.                           ]

2 Kaitars worth on Chlen Hide.

The Chlen is very obviously a genetically-engineered animal. Far too
useful, much like a pig, or the mythical Wumpus from the Flanders and
Swan song.

Rather than 'leather' as such, the skin is a complex polymer, more like
Nylon, Teflon or Kevlar (at least, after polymerisation using the
appropriate low-tech chameical treatment). Thus a flexible, durable
plastic. A different treatment results in crystals embedded in a matrix,
quite suitable for sharpening. A still different treatment results in
more cross-links between polymer chains, resulting in a strong but
slightly brittle plastic, much like bakelite.

As regarding Rot - after some treatment, it rots no more than Nylon.
Given the longevity in the environment of some plastics, I would not at
all be surprised if some 20,000 year old ceremonial garb retained much
of its structual integrity, and 40,000 year old Chlen-hide weapons may
still be quite useable, if not exposed to sunlight (which would tend to
break up the long-chain molecules due to UV... possibly a reason why so
many ancient things are underground?) Anyway, such is a plausible
explanation, consistent with late-20th and early-21st century knowledge.
In the intervening umpty-ump millenia, who knows what knowledge has been
found and lost and found again?

As regards cultural Blind-Spots, and knowledge thereof.

I think the only remedy is for some players to live for a few days or
weeks in a totally alien culture. Start with a simple, fairly close one.
Like Germany or France. Then a somewhat more peculiar one, like Israel.
Then try Thailand, or parts of India. Learn a few 10s of words of each
language.

Or just jump in the deep end.

Thailand is a good place, as it is as culturally and ethnically diverse
as the USA, with Thai, Chinese, Hmon, Mao, Khmer, etc etc etc
influences, all quite as distinct as Swedish is from Greek. It also has
some very Tekumelian features, as I'm sure Professor Barker is well
aware.

Failing the availability of a spare thousand dollars or two, just read
some books on Thai History in the last 200 years. You will be surprised
and amazed. The campaign to wear hats in the 20's for example. The
drowning last century of the Queen and Princess because Royalty were
forbidden to be touched, on pain of death and extermination of the
perpetrator's family. As preparation for doing business in Thailand, a
few games of EPT is an excellent start!
 
----- 


//563

[Moderator's Note:  Ian Atkinson provides an interesting response to Peter  ]
[                   Timko's theory about Ditlana.                           ]

Imel HiKetkolel of the Clan of the Purple Gem, a priest in the temple of
Karakan and rusala to the 5th Imperial Heavy Infantry, responds to Peter
Timko's discussion of ditlana (message 556).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

While I am able, with great difficulty, to pronounce the name of "Orson
Welles", I am quite unable to agree with his thesis that times of
instability promote great artists and men of letters.  The period of
greatest artistic and literary achievement in my civilisation occurred
during an era known as Engsvlan Hla Ganga, a golden age in which Stability
held sway over a vast area for a considerable time.  Cultures noted for a
love of bloodshed, such as the Nluss, or for political division, such as
the Milumanayani or the natives of Haida Pakala, have produced little of
merit. 

I agree with HiTimko that ditlana cleanses excessive architectural growths
from cities and I feel that there is considerable merit in his idea that
this cleansing extends to the reduction of excessive political and
factional growths as well.  There is a similarity here with the
consecration of warriors, in which youths put aside the diversions of
childhood, and with the rites associated with joining a legion or temple,
in which an adult discards the encumbrances of civilian life.  These life
events may be seen as ditlana on a personal scale.  Only by discarding the
inessential can we steel ourselves and find the necessary focus that
vigorous noble action requires.  Ditlana serves a similar life-event role
in a city's skein of destiny. 

I must take issue with HiTimko's theological contention that ditlana seems
not to fit well into the weltanschauung of those who serve Stability.
HiTimko remarks, quite perceptively for a barbarian from a realm barren of
magic and ignorant of the Gods, that ditlana serves a time marking
function.  I can think of few better metaphors for Stability than the
ticking of a clock.

>From a social perspective, without the periodic re-starting of civic
affairs through ditlana, major Change of a slow incremental character
would develop in directions that are unguessable.  This "progress", as I
think Terrans call it, is the very antithesis of Stability and ditlana is
one of the institutions by which progress is suppressed and Stability
maintained. 

It is often thought that any form of destruction serves Change.  Not so!
We at the temple of Karakan are quite comfortable with the idea of
supporting Stability through selective destruction.  Ditlana is an
excellent example of selective destruction in the interest of Stability.

HiTimko speculates that failure to observe ditlana in the last 800 years
has caused the present unpleasantness in Tsolyani political affairs. 
While I am unable to comment on the analysis by which he reaches this
conclusion, since it involves consideration of "progressive" development
in the absence of ditlana and that is a mode of historical study that I am
unfamiliar with, I feel that his conclusion is correct.  The Gods weave
the skeins of imperial destinies and there is a strong whiff of Divine
Retribution in the succession crisis.  We know that failure to do ditlana
does not please the Gods! 

I disagree with his opinion that a stronger empire would not have such
factional opposition to Dich'une.  No empire, at any time, could tolerate
the theft of the Petal Throne by such illegitimate means.

Peter HiTimko sees a silver lining in the current political situation, in
that a war of succession will serve as a ditlana on an empire-wide scale. 
I don't think that any analogy can be drawn between the random devastation
of civil war and the orderly elimination of ditlana.  I do, however, see
the prospect of a golden lining: if Eselne should ascend the throne with
Kettukal as his general and with all the vital forces of the empire
already mobilised for war, Yan Kor will be crushed and Livyanu will slip
from Mu'ugalavyani hands into ours with ease.  We would then be three
fifths of the way towards reuniting the five empires in a second Engsvlan
Hla Ganga. 

I welcome this opportunity for dialogue with a Terran and I urge all
Terrans to get around to ditlana as soon as they can.  Clearly their
culture is deeply mired in the quicksands of progress. 

 - Imel HiKetkolel.

(translated by Ian Atkinson)
-----


//564

[Moderator's Note:  Gordon Neff may have found a Tekumel sighting.  I'll have]
[                   to go back and check the movie, but it would be interest-]
[                   ing to have Phil comment on this.  Have you seen the     ]
[                   movie in question, Phil?  If not, let's try to find a    ]
[                   copy for you to view.                                    ]

        Chris:

        Well, well. Lookee what we have here...
        1984's "Star Trek III: The Search For Spock" concludes on the
planet Vulcan, with a massive ceremonial ritual conjuring up heavy magic.
Lightning flashes, the thing takes all night, &c., &c.

        Now, this whole sequence is HUGELY REDOLENT of Tekumel-- put a few
million bucks into an EPT movie, and you could produce something
essentially identical. The High Priestess in headdress and robes, with
lesser priests and priestesses flocking around; guards in fantastically
ornate armor with pike-like weapons no less ornate, a huge gong struck
ritually...
        Fine. Interesting coincidence. Very impressive sequence, too.
        Then I just HAPPENED to get a close look at the chap striking the
gong. The one with the vaguely Japanese-looking headdress. The one with
Tsolyani characters inscribed on his headdress.

        They're all word-initial consonants; it's not an actual phrase of
any sort. It is, however, UNMISTAKABLE.

        So I just ran through the screen credits-- an extended and
occasionally interesting odyssey in itself-- but found no trace of
acknowledgement. Robert Fletcher did the costumes, but the illustrator was
a chap named Tom Lay; maybe it was HIS idea.

        At the least, it's interesting to know that the astounding visual
similarities of that sequence are NOT coincidental...

                -- Gordon.
-----


//565

[Moderator's Note:  John Smith asks about the Tsolyani flared weapon design.]

quoth the Professor on chlen hide:

>Obtaining bronze swords for the entire Tsolyani army would be a major drain
>on the Empire's fiscal reserves. Chlen-hide is so much easier to get; the
>troops like it because it is very light (which bronze is not)

Very true.  I have a solid bronze dagger and a steel kukhri which are of 
about equal weight, even though the kukhri is almost twice the size of 
the dagger!  No wonder they kept swords short in the Bronze Age.  

>the
>Tsolyani were never interested in *short* or simple *straight* swords;
>their society demands elaborate shapes and complexities. 

This has always bothered me.  Many of the swords and other weapons I 
have seen in illustrations of Tekumel have been SO elaborate as to look 
impossible to wield in real combat.  Even if chlen hide is much lighter, 
the weapon should still be properly balanced to be effective.  Another 
matter is that all those waves, barbs, and zags will get caught in your 
opponent's armour or in his body, meaning you will waste time you may 
not have trying to free it.  You can have this difficulty even with the 
most streamlined sword, how much more so with those baroque creations 
the Tsolyani carry around?  Even if you killed the guy, will your next 
opponent be so "noble" as to wait for you to work your sword free?  The 
courtesies of the Hirilakte Areas do not necessarily apply to warfare, 
no matter how formallised.  An equal possibility is that your sword will 
break, maybe just at the tip which will make it less effective, or maybe 
further down which may make it useless to you.  I will admit that 
leaving a barb in somebody will make a wound nastier but is it worth the 
other possibility?  In either situation you could easily kill your first 
opponent only to find yourself disarmed in the middle of a battle.  Even 
if you carry more than one weapon this may only delay the inevitable.  
Unless they let you go back to your camp to get a new weapon, you now 
have to scavenge from your fallen comrades or from the enemy and even if 
you can find an intact weapon in time (remember that they will be having 
the same problem) it may not be one you are trained to use.  I recall in 
various sources (Swords and Glory, etc.) it is emphasized that one 
usually receives training only in the weapons of one's Legion, so if 
your Legion uses swords and all you can find are polearms, you're almost 
as badly off as any untrained peasant would be in the same situation.

This also would be an economic and logistical nightmare.  Imagine an 
army having to haul enough weapons to re-arm itself four or five times 
over!  Can the five empires really afford THAT much planned 
obsolescence? Is chlen hide really that cheap?  (Don't forget the labour 
costs involved either!)

Now, I am probably overstating the case here somewhat.  I would assume 
that the weapons meant for regular soldiers in set battles are of less 
elaborate shapes than those meant for display or for duels.  Also it may 
be that chlen hide weapons are not so subject to breakage as metal ones, 
though I see this as only partly alleviating the problem.  

[Moderator's Note:  I believe you are correct here.  While the Tekumelani do ]
[                   indeed prefer some style-ization of their weapons, those ]
[                   that are excessively decorated/designed are for rituals  ]
[                   only.  A less flambouyant style is used for fighting.    ]
[                   The Professor can elaborate, confirm or deny this.       ]

I also noted in the "Adventures on Tekumel" series that you never refer 
to weapon _sheathes_, but only to weapon "clips," which strikes me as 
sensible.

Yours for the Greater Glory of the Seal,

John
-----


//566

[Moderator's Note:  Steve Woodcock asks about the vast Empires of the Star- ]
[                   faring races prior to Tekumel's dropping into its pocket]
[                   dimension.                                              ]

>the Professor mentions again the always-intriguing Great Ancients.  might
>i humbly ask for a few more impressions about the star-empires that
>preceeded the Time of Darkness?  i've always found their references
>fascinating, and i know that at this "time depth" few details are
>available, but any general info would be most appreciated.  (e.g.,
>polytheistic? feudal? clan-based?)

Wish I could help more, but I have never investigated the great empires of
the ancients. I have always had more than enough to do on Tekumel itself.
The few myths and stories that survive tell of a single powerful
interstellar state in this region of Humanspace: humans dominated it. The
aggressive, curious, avaricious, and generally "up and at 'em" nature of
our species made it possible for humankind to rule (or at least strongly
influence) many species who were older and perhaps wiser than we.

Humanspace included other citizens as well: the Pe Choi (whose scientific
abilities had made intersteller travel feasible), the Ahoggya, who built
great, boxy, bumbling merchant ships that bought stuff that other races
treated  as vile waste; the Shen, whose own fleets ranged far from their
home system; the Pachi Lei, Swamp Folk, and Hlaka, whose cultures were
smaller and less technological, but who had the capability to take Pe Choi
technology and construct their own merchant fleets' the Tinaliya, who were
intensely curious but who were so logical that they never developed an
aesthetic or spiritual understanding at all. Etc. Still other races may
also have existed within this sphere. including some that were hostile to
Humankind.

The pre-Tekumel form of government is hinted at in one myth-cycle as a sort
of vast bureaucracy operating under a council of Archons (this is not the
name in their language(s), of course). Each planet had its governing
structure, but all joined together in this single great council (held at
different locales from time to time), whenever need demanded. There were
(and probably still are) spheres of power other than Humanspace scattered
across the galaxy, with still more existing on other Planes that can be
reached by nexus point gateways from ouur own space. Some of these species
were extremely hostile to humans and their allies; a few hated the Pe Choi
and considered humanity as little more than Pe Choi puppets. Several races
preferred total isolation and blocked off access to their worlds with
deadly technological devices. A few also sent small, secret groups to
investigate and report on humanity's progress: e.g. the Shunned Ones. It is
not known how many of these spy missions still survived on Tekumel after
the planet and its solar system were abducted into the pocket dimension in
which it still exists.

So little is known... Alas! "Even the voices of the mountains are muted by
the Sea of Time" (from the Engsvanyali recension of the "Lament to the
Wheel of Black")

Regards,

Phil
-----


//567

[Moderator's Note:  Dwight Grosso asks about current events and tries to    ]
[                   summarize what's going on in Tsolyanu.  The Professor   ]
[                   responds and brings us up to date.                      ]

You're quite close to being correct.

>Maybe I missed something over the last couple of months as to the current
>situation in Tsolyanu and its bordering neighbors

>1. Dhiuchine has ascended the throne and civil war is breaking out.

War *has* broken out; it has been several months now that Eselne's forces
have been occupying the northwest; Rereshqala's troops are taking the
southern cities; Dhich'une is holed up in Avanthar, still issuing Imperial
edicts, with several legions of Sarku-troops to back him up; Mirusiya and
the newly-revealed Ksarul-worshipping Prince Taksuru holding Bey Su and
trying to take Avanthar; Princess Ma'in in Jakalla minding the store; and
all sorts of other powers and power bases, large and small, scrambling for
goodies.

>2. Eselne and Mirusiya are fighting in the north and are presumably trying to
>work their way south?

Eselne has encountered only the westernmost units of Mirusiya's forces.
They are *not* friendly to one another, and some stand-offs and even
clashes are reported. Eselne demands the Petal Throne entirely for himself,
leaving nothing but generalships and chancellorships for his half-siblings.
Nobody has accepted this. Eselne had initial successes in the south, down
as far as Usenanu, but Rereshqala's southern legions pushed him back, and
at the Great Battle of the River just south of Usenanu, Eselne himself was
nearly killed, and his army was pushed back and could not establish a
foothold on the eastern shore. (He has since landed forces elsewhere.)

>3. Rereshqala is leading up another army from the south to Avanthar.

He's trying. Last word I had was that his advance troops were at Hauma,
fighting with Eselne's forces near the Kurt Hills.

>4. Mu'ugalavya has retaken the Chakas, and Salarvya is witing to pounce on
>its former provinces.

The Red Hats retook only Pan Chaka, sending thousands of Pachi Lei fleeing
into Tsolyanu, where they are treated as slightly unwelcome refugees. The
Pe Choi blocked the Mu'ugalavyani from seizing Do Chaka -- they hate the
Red Hats, except for a few Pe Choi tribes that are willing to accept
Ssa'atis' commands.

>5. Mridobu is nowhere to be dead, and his wgereabouts unknown.

Yup. He's "nowhere to be dead" -- or may be "dead and nowhere" ...

>6. Baron Ald was declared Dhiuchine's Supreme Commander of forces, and his
>whereabouts are also currently unknown.

No, the Baron is alive and well. He became disillusioned with Dhich'une,
who plotted to have him killed. The Baron is back in Yan Kor, trying to
hold Yan Kor together. There has never been much love lost between some of
the city states: Makhis rivals Sne Kakor, Eber despises Go'on Tikku,
several states have violent economic rivalries, etc. The Baron has used his
best Gurek (legions) to put down rebellions spawned by upstarts. He was
with his Tsolyani love-interest, Lady Kalusu hiViridame, the last we saw of
him. She may have returned to Tsolyanu by now -- or to some other place,
where she can gain some advantage for her man.

This is truly a mess. People always used to complain that Tsolyanu was so
stable and strongly governed that there was no room for "adventure" there.
Yet very similar conditions have occurred at least 3-4 times before in
history. If you don't mind dying in a bloody, confused, totally useless
melee somewhere far from home, visit Tsolyanu and enjoy!

Regards,

Phil
-----


//568

[Moderator's Note:  Dwight Grosso asks some more about the great Cataclysm    ]
[                   and the Professor responds.  He also asks some interesting]
[                   questions about the Mihalli.                              ]

>In Nuno Flavio's questions about pre-Cataclysm Tekumel, the subject of the
>other 722 systems that fell prey to the Cataclysm and their current status
>and histories was brought up. It seems to me that many of these systems were
>probably destroyed, or left relatively uninhabitable for any race to live on,
>except for the Shen, Shunned Ones or the Mihalli. While I can't begin to
>conceive what the Cataclysm could do to an entire planet, I can comprehend
>what a solar flare could do. If that is the case then even those above
>mentioned races would have a hard time living on a burned out husk of a
>planetoid.

We know -- I think -- that the Cataclysm that removed Tekumel and its
system from Humanspace was *not* a solar flare; otherwise, as you say,
there would have been nothing left but cinders! No, Tekumel was sent off
into its bubble-dimension by some process that involved other-dimensional
technology. (It could have been a natural phenomenon, too, but I don't
think so.)  A great hole was opened in the space-time fabric of the Planes,
and the victim (planet, system, etc.) slid through into a bubble; then the
gateway was closed again.

>What I am curious to know is that whether or not the Nluss settled on other
>planets. It stands to reason that they could have. For that matter any of the
>races that settled Tekumel could have settled other planets along with the
>Terrans, and probably did.

Absolutely. The N'luss were a genetic offshoot of the rather homogeneous
human race before the Catastrophe. They seem to have been wanderers with
few fixed bases. They traded rare metals and industrial technology to a
variety of races within Humanspace -- and even beyond it occasionally. They
maintained an attitude of aloof pride, which annoyed their other human
counterparts, and which occasionally got them killed. They appear to have
had little or no interest in ruling star empires, and were happiest when
"questing."

>The fact that humanity managed to drag itself up to a level of civilization
>similar to the early Rennaisance on Tekumel is amazing in and of itself. I'm
>not so sure humans or any other race did that well on other planets that were
>savaged by the Cataclysm. The only ones who would know about that would be
>the Mihalli, I presume, and they're not talking! Speaking of which can they
>travel back and forth to these other planets?

I doubt if they venture that far. I suspect not. Occasionally they drop
hints about the places they visit, but these are disconnected, fragmentary,
and seen through the eyes (and other senses) of creatures that lack our
nice, "solid" perceptions of time and space.

>It seems that they could if
>they knew where they were going.... Which brings another question. Do the
>Mihalli have "collective conscious" form of Telepathy?

Not that I know of. They seem to be able to reach out and touch the minds
of those with whom they wish to communicate, but they do not have a
collective mind or consciousness.

>That is to say, can
>they travel to other planes if only one of their kind has been there? Their
>minds do work much differently than our own, but the principle seems to be
>one that Eastern philosophy embraces.

I honestly don't know who they do it. They may just reach out and put a
request to others of their species. This is then answered -- like asking
around from one's fellows for a road-map.

Regards,

Phil
-----


//569

[Moderator's Note:  James Snead asks about Tekumel's older, "abandoned"    ]
[                   Shrines and Temples.                                   ]

>I'm interested in the significance of major, "abandoned" shrines for the
>modern ritual and political agendas of the various priesthoods.  While the
>role of Hmakuyal for the temples of Hru"u and Ksarul has been thoroughly
>discussed, less information is available for other examples; the Chakan
>temple of Vimuhla, for instance, and particularly the ruined temple of
>Sarku.

Hmakuyal is still occupied and in constant use. In fact, one of our player
group was born and raised there. The Vimuhla shrine in the Chakas lies
hidden within thick jungle. The Vimuhla priesthood does not want it known
-- or much visited -- and so it is concealed behind nexus points and
magical camouflage. The Temple of Sarku in hex 4013 of the Zocchi map is
superficially ruined and desolate. Acturally, there are constant ceremonies
and activities going on there.

>I assume that both of these shrines are more active than they
>appear, but would they be the object of pilgrimages

No. Pilgrimages are more often made to city shrines, or shrines just
outside the cities, where people can come and go more easily. These
"secret" shrines are for the initiates and higher clergy only.

>Does their control
>play any part in the political machinations of empires (I'm thinking here
>about Mu'uglavyani activity in the Chakas)?

Not much. The Mu'ugalavyani tried to find the Vimuhla shrine, but the
priests enhanced its camouflage and stayed hidden. They are quite hostile
to the Read Hats, whom they blame for the "Hrsh heresy."

>The shrine of Sarku is a
>somewhat different matter.  Was it destroyed during the campaigns of
>Shaira Su? Its fortified setting suggests that it is still contested
>ground.  Is its reconstruction on the agenda for the reign of "Eternal
>Splendor?"

Yes, there were several campaigns by both Vayuma Su and her daughter,
Shaira Su. The latter finally managed to destroy at least the upper shrine,
although great stone fortifications survive. It's an interesting place. If
you wish to see it, find a guide at the caravan-stop in hex 3914 and
arrange for travel, etc. there. You won't see anything of the fabled
underground, of course, and everybody you'll meet will be unfailingly
polite and helpful. Your hosts won't bother you if you don't bother them.
It's an interesting trip.

Regards,

Phil
-----


//570

[Moderator's note:  Joe Saul answers Gordon's question about the problems   ]
[                   with semaphores.  Gordon also follows up on his own post]
[                   detailing another problem.                              ]

[Joes Saul's response...]
Gordon Neff wrote:

>message carried by jogging courier. Theoretically, reports from a a field
>commander could get to Avanthe the same day they were sent!
>        I suppose the Imperial Couriers and the Blazing Sword Clan wouldn't
>be too thrilled with THAT innovation, either...

The Temple of Avanthe would be even less thrilled.  *They're* supposed to be
mediating that kind of contact.  ;-)  (You meant Avanthar.  Easy mistake.)

>-- As an exercise for the alert reader, can you tell me the single biggest
>pitfall with this system? Hint: What range limits might exist?

Telescopes aren't in common use in Tsolyanu, as far as I can tell from comments
in _Man of Gold_.  This would restrict its use to the range of human sight.
Rough terrain would make the situation potentially worse.

On the other hand, the horizon on Tekumel should be a lot farther than on
Earth...

Joe

[Gordon follows up on his original question...]

        "-- As an exercise for the alert reader, can you tell me the single
biggest pitfall with this system? Hint: What range limits might exist?"

        In case no one figures this out-- which someone almost certainly
will; membership on this mailing list could be construed as an intelligence
test of no small utility-- there's a party game where the players sit in a
circle, and a short phrase is given to the first player. He whispers it
into his neighbor's ear, and he in turn whispers it, and so on around the
circle.
        What emerges at the end of the process is wildly and strangely
distorted. Comparison of this mangled product with the original is often
hilarious-- the source of the game's amusement.

        It's the concept of 'cumulative error.' Despite all safeguards,
'best guesses' at ambiguity will snowball-- any message sent by semaphore
telegraph will eventually deteriorate beyond comprehension. Simple code
groups can forestall this, but suffer the hazard of correspondingly massive
information loss-- was that number 116 or 110? The entire sense of the
message may depend on which it was...

        The main value of the 'semaphore telegraph' is that it not only
-can- work with Tekumeli knowledge, but it suits the culture also. Any
civilization so deeply entrenched and well organized that it can build
Sakbe Roads, and enforce the rules of those Roads across the entire domain,
could build and employ such semaphores with ease.

        As I recall sitting here, less is said in the S & G Sourcebook
about long-distance communication than could be. I retain the impression of
temple telepaths and jogging Imperial couriers-- yet it is also said that
there are no such things, really, as 'local ordinances'; what is legal in
Avanthar is legal in Do Chaka. That both implies and very much requires
fast, reliable, most of all -commonplace- communication. Local
jurisprudence will depend on knowing what legal decisions have been made,
what precedents have been established, &c.

        Such a vast and ancient Empire cannot be held together with
Kuni-birds...

        For that matter, given how hellishly predominant the Sun is, it is
easy to imagine equally Brobdignagian heliograph mirrors-- perhaps swung up
and down with ropes pulled by slaves. Tsolyani does not lend itself to
Morse code, of course, but such signal-mirrors were used for centuries by
cultures Samuel Morse never -heard- of. The flash of such titanic
heliographs could be seen as far away as the horizon permitted. Again, such
installations could not be thrown up overnight-- but this is Tsolyanu, land
of massive masonry. They -could- be constructed.

        You'd be surprised at how much information can be transmitted
between dawn and sunset, by those trained in its communication.

--G.
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.


